Help a novice trying to progress

[ncchainsaw]

I apologies for the length here. I wanted to include as many details as I could think of to get good answers and possibly help others who are also trying to learn & progress.

My background is I live in NC, and thanks to ice storms, hurricanes, my 5 acre woods, 6 rental properties & helping friends I have probably taken down ~100 trees and cut up another ~150 that have fallen. I've made mistakes, but am trying to learn and progress. I probably find myself w/ a chainsaw in my hands at least once a month. Plus I always seem to get more opportunities like a week in MS last fall.

I currently have a Husq 261, Stihl 390 & Stihl 192T as saws. 200ft bull rope, block & sling, come along & several small ropes for equipment.

I usually take down trees by:

1) ascending tree w/ 28ft ladder and attaching a rigging line
2) attaching a sling & block to anchor point in direction I want tree to fall
3) run line from tree, to block, then to back of truck heading in opposite direction
4) have helper pull w/ truck while I back-cut and drop tree

This has worked well (once I invested in a bull rope and block &sling).

There are times when I have a clear path to drop the tree, but would like a slightly more controlled descent.

I am considering the following....

1) ascend tree neighboring tree to drop & attach block & sling
2) attach wrap/friction device at base of neighboring tree
3) run line from friction device, through sling & attach to tree to drop
4) attach 2nd line to tree to drop
5) attach sling & block to anchor point in direction I want tree to fall
6) run 2nd line from tree to drop, through sling & block
7) when back cutting, use manual force to pull tree in direction of ground &
8) have helper leverage friction device to slow/control descent of tree

I am thinking about using this when dropping some 70-90ft, 12-16" diameter 6ft up eastern pines and 60ft, 10-14" diameter 6ft up sweet gums.

Are there flaws in this that I'm missing?

I don't think I'm ready to start climbing or cutting/rigging while in the tree. I'm thinking with my experience this might be a next step in how I take down trees.

Based on this I'm thinking about getting a port-a-wrap friction device, another sling, another block & sling and another ~150 ft, 1/2 - 5/8", ~6,000lb rope.

Any feedback or mistakes in my thinking would be appreciated.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Very easy to overload line and/or other tree top. Also, if they don't fail can seize tree/ pull back towards sawyer in batter's box.

The support top will be taking ~2x part of leveraged load/tree that hinge doesn't support X Distance as hitch point is moving away from supporting tree top. Then tree top will be taking that force at a leveraged distance and angle from it's sole supporting trunk/ground connection.

It can be done to steer and buffer fall; but a tough call for an experienced feller to make; if at all. Placing block in tree in 1st scenario allows you to flex stronger hinge with 2x pull. Placing pulley in tree next to felling tree is a judgment call on heat damaging rope vs. double loading support. ie. taking out pulley will load support tree less; but couldn't pay out line as quickly or burn rope. Might place pulley on tree like in scenario 1, to flex stronger hinge, stop pulling when it 'breathes'/can move on own and place less load on support.

But; that is just all theory; and without lots of experience and/or baby target tree newb(ud)ie shouldn't try; even experienced should walk away from this most of the time IMLHO. In some ways this is like expanded tapered hinge, in that the rope fiber just pulls at the same corner angle that fat side of hinge would pull; only higher. And have used it to explain tapered hinge; with a do not do warning.

Lil'rough: One of my 1st drawings years ago shows tapered hinge, rear plunge/trigger, forcing stronger hinge etc.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Get a throw ball and a big shot, then you don't ever have to climb the tree to set a rope. You do it from the safety of the ground, and much faster too.
The truck pull technique has been discussed here before, it's dangerous and much more force than you need to pull a tree over. You're asking for trouble.

 

[ncchainsaw]

Re: Help a novice....

Mike,

Thanks for the feedback - I'll do a search to read more on the truck pull.

Regarding the 2nd scenario - will that work to slow the descent or am I asking for trouble there too.

thanks

 

[clearance]

The truck pull technique has been discussed here before, it's dangerous and much more force than you need to pull a tree over. You're asking for trouble.

Is that so Mike? You can't have done it much or properly then. Using trucks to pull over trees can work great, if you know what you are doing and use the right equipment. You use appropriate force, you don't just roar off, the man making the cuts directs the show, with hand signals, often relayed to the driver. I have been on a three man utilty removal crew that pullled over more trees than I can remember. Thats for removal around powerlines and roads, where it really matters. What NC is talkng about reminds me of reading about guys who lowered big cedars so they could have a long log right to a 4" top, for fish traps and totem poles. NC, I say stick to pulling the trees over like you have been doing. Make sure that you are using all the correct procedures for falling leaners and falling in general, all to be found on this site. One thing I will repeat, after you put in the undercut, chain the tree above it before you make the backcut, so a chair won't get you. I always make a check before the backcut, is the area clear, has the rope jumped the sheave (s), is everyone on the same page, etc. Keep it simple.

 

[Ekka]

You use appropriate force, you don't just roar off, the man making the cuts directs the show, with hand signals, often relayed to the driver.

Well said, in many of my videos you will see assisted pullovers and you'll see me cutting then giving the signal for the driver to go.

You should be able to even walk away with that saw then give the signal.

Assisted pulls are safest, I have used excavators, trucks, 4wd's and Kanga. The benefit you have is the heavier the vehicle the less likely the tree is to sit on the saw or drag the vehicle off the wrong way.

Be extremely aware of of traction though, wet grass trying to go uphill on a large tree is dumb, look for a redirect point so the truck is going downhill etc.

I have heard of numbers like this .... the vehicle pulling will exert approx 1.5x to 2x it's own weight in force. so watch your rope's breaking strength and it doesn't mean you drop the clutch and give it a tremendous jolt. You just have tension and smoothly drive away.

For felling the big gums i have a 9000kg breaking strength rope I use. Then I have some 5000kg, 4000kg and 2000kg BS ropes for smaller pulls.

Make sure the vehicle is further than the ht of the tree away.

 

[beowulf343]

I like using a set of double blocks to pull over a tree when in a cramped area. Use them nearly every day without a problem. Nc, I have used a method somewhat similar to your second scenario when dropping stems into a road. It works well but just remember to not cut through your hinge. In fact I have set my double blocks into the top of my chip truck (into a hook I had welded there) and then pull the stem over with my pickup while using the double blocks to control the rate of descent. I just must stress how important a good notch and hinge are.

 

[cord arrow]

...great thread. had no idea the pros drop 'em like us hillbillies.
...heck, that's why we bought the truck...

 

[arboralliance]

Hi all thanks for the great site...

My concern is; nowhere did ncchainsaw mention a face cut or "scarf" as we like to call 'em, just mentions a back cut...

Also backing up the primary pull line is a fairly critical process even if its just done with a prusick...

Ekka, Anyone?

 

[cord arrow]

...i've seen some boys around here yank 'em down with no face cut what-so-ever.
now, i don't condone this kinda thing, but their "hinge" is the small amount of wood that's left when they gotta take off runnin'.
scarey to watch. funny, but scarey.

 

[rbtree]

Is that so Mike? You can't have done it much or properly then. Using trucks to pull over trees can work great, if you know what you are doing and use the right equipment. You use appropriate force, you don't just roar off, the man making the cuts directs the show, with hand signals, often relayed to the driver. I have been on a three man utilty removal crew that pullled over more trees than I can remember. Thats for removal around powerlines and roads, where it really matters. What NC is talkng about reminds me of reading about guys who lowered big cedars so they could have a long log right to a 4" top, for fish traps and totem poles. NC, I say stick to pulling the trees over like you have been doing. Make sure that you are using all the correct procedures for falling leaners and falling in general, all to be found on this site. One thing I will repeat, after you put in the undercut, chain the tree above it before you make the backcut, so a chair won't get you. I always make a check before the backcut, is the area clear, has the rope jumped the sheave (s), is everyone on the same page, etc. Keep it simple.

Correct, Clearance. I just finished logging two truckloads of hemlock. We wedged a few over, but used a truck or excavator on most of them. Set all lines with the Big Shot. Some had a bit of back lean or back branch weight toward the primaries just a few feet away. I'm always very precise when pretensioning lines with equipment, so as not to overstress the line.

Good post, Eric! Don't want the pulling vehicle to lose traction either.....I do normally prefer mechanical advantage and pulling by hand or with the GRCS, but with the logging job we just got done, time was critical and with the truck and hoe, we always had the pull right where we wanted it and had it set up quickly.

 

[boo]

when in doubt, piece it out.
tree work, not guess work.
there is a guy here in the area that has a new hip, and shattered back....
rolls around in a wheelchair. he miscalculated pulling over a tree with a tractor.
know what ya got, then check it again.

 

[clearance]

when in doubt, piece it out.
tree work, not guess work.
there is a guy here in the area that has a new hip, and shattered back....
rolls around in a wheelchair. he miscalculated pulling over a tree with a tractor.
know what ya got, then check it again.

What exactly is your point, other than relating an unfortunate occurence? People have been killed and injured piecing down trees as well. Rigging down big chunks and logs is major guesswork in my view. What I am talkng about is not guess work, it is removal tree work at its most efficient. Pretty safe when you can put the undercut in a tree, have it tensioned a bit so your saw doesn't pinch in the backcut, put in the backcut and then walk to a safe place, signal the truck/machine operator (who is also in a safe place) to pull over the tree. Probably about as safe as it gets in this business.

 

[Ekka]

Hi all thanks for the great site...

My concern is; nowhere did ncchainsaw mention a face cut or "scarf" as we like to call 'em, just mentions a back cut...?

Haha, you'd assume that they had progressed this far, but then again I just read that some hillbillies just rip em out or off. But I did see a video around here from some-one NWCS I think, where he's got this tractor thingo and just rips them out, root ball and all.

Also backing up the primary pull line is a fairly critical process even if its just done with a prusick...

Ekka, Anyone

Back up is important where the lean may get away from you. For example where a back leaner has a house etc behind it. In one of my vids we had 2 ropes on a back leaner plus a pull rope.

I back up most of mine with a wedge where I feel the weighting or lean is negligable.

I rarely, if ever back up the pull rope, I may have other ropes on the tree as mentioned or wedges.

I think the key is to match your gear. Dont pull with a 20ton excavator on a tree using 2000kg rope.

You may say, what if the rope busts on the pull? Well, then you may have had no shackle and a knot with rope on rope like a running bowline up the tree, or some other wierd thing. But if the hinge is correct and the wedges in place you'll be OK.

It's like saying the climber is the load, the gear has the SWL to do the job, but we back up that climbing line with another or double our prusiks for every connection.

I wonder what the ANSI Standards are?

 

[boo]

What exactly is your point, other than relating an unfortunate occurence? People have been killed and injured piecing down trees as well. Rigging down big chunks and logs is major guesswork in my view. What I am talkng about is not guess work, it is removal tree work at its most efficient. Pretty safe when you can put the undercut in a tree, have it tensioned a bit so your saw doesn't pinch in the backcut, put in the backcut and then walk to a safe place, signal the truck/machine operator (who is also in a safe place) to pull over the tree. Probably about as safe as it gets in this business.

my point is all over my post. guess work has too much room for error.
most newbs feel safer flopping a tree, rather than climbing. to see a pro do it could look simple.
experience plays a big role in taking the danger/risk factor down.
sorry clearance, but it's just not as simple sometimes as to just flop a tree. if one has a lean next to a house where people may be inside etc... I'm not going to guess, I'll be sure.
hopefully you don't learn what I'm saying by guessing and "accidentally" killing someone.