Help me gauge field Level Of Knowledge regarding Forest Pathology

[madhatte]

I'm working on a study involving Laminated Root Rot in our forests. One of the details is having loggers mark the stumps of visibly-infected trees with two parallel lines cut in the tops of the stumps; the stain from the disease fades in just a few weeks after exposure to air and light, but the cuts are visible for years.

So far, we've had good results with our contractors' ability to positively ID the stain when present. What I'd like to know from you guys, particularly PNW fallers, is which diseases do you know how to ID and buck or cull for? What are the characteristics you look for? What are the thresholds you use to determine whether a log is "bad enough" to leave on the ground, or to take your chances with the scaler?

This will be a big help for me as I'm trying to write a procedure for a follow-up study to the one I'm working on right now which will address contractor/logger LOK as well as what I can observe myself.

Thanks in advance.

 

[forestryworks]

Subscribing. Should be an interesting thread.

 

[nw axe man]

Good morning, MadHatte.
I've had a lot to do with Phellinus weirii otherwise known as laminated root rot. We've also done the parallel cuts into the stump for ID purposes. Seems like they've tried everything from Borax to bees wax to get this under control. From what I've learned about it it stays in the soil about 100 years if there isn't a species of tree that feeds it. The Gifford Pinchot has tried planting western white pine in areas that are overly affected. As you drive east on Hwy 12 through Randle and slow down to look. the whole southern aspect on the north side of the highway is infected.
When cutting in an area and you haven't fallen anything yet, the thing to look for is windfalls that have no root system on them. All you'll see is a root ball with the interior of the roots rotten with a punky type rot. This is a particularly insidious disease as it passes from the ends of the roots and travels up through the stump and out the other side into the roots of neighboring trees. If you're walking through the woods generally you'll find where there are "holes" in the timber where the trees tend to fall toward the infected heart of the "hole" in the timber. You have to pay attention as sometimes there is no indication of disease. I've fallen several trees where the root ball was so infected and gone that the when the tree started to go it pulled up the root ball. That's a bit disconcerting and you do get a little up your neck at the same time.
You can also tell if it's diseased if you pat attention to the tops of the trees. The limbs will "flag" out, in other words, the needles will start thinning so much that you can see the difference in a tree that is dead and just doesn't know it yet, and a live tree that has full needles. I'm constantly called to peoples homes that have this disease on their property. When I tell them that all of their trees are infected in a group they can't believe it. In a year or two they see the light when they start flagging.
As far as "leaving" a log on the ground it has to be just plain rotten to leave anymore as the pulp market generally will take just about anything that will hold together. I remember back in the seventies and eighties when a lot of logs were left in the woods. You can take a trip up to any high country clear cuts and see the logs that were left on the ground.
Doug fir is not the only species that is affected by this disease. Cedar and hemlock also get it. Not to the extent that doug fir get it but they do contract it.
I don't believe that they've found a cure for this yet. I'd sure be interested to know if they ever do. My mother has a 40 acre timber plot that has root rot. It was all replanted in doug fir. I don't hold out too much hope for it when it gets a little older.

 

[2dogs]

Not really on topic here but in the Sierras blue stain can have a negative or a positive impact on the value of the wood. I don't know how to read blue stain from just looking at a tree. I don't even know if it is possible. I just figure every tree will have it. Beetles are pretty easy to see but I don't know if there is a cause/effect relationship or not.

Countertop Slabs from Reclaimed 'Blue Stain' Wood Sugar Pine | Ponderosa Pine Bug Trees

In redwoods we deal with brown cubicle rot. We also just call it heart rot. I figure every burned out tree has it and every large tree over 36"dbh has it too (near Big Sur only, not elsewhere).

 

[slowp]

We've had a couple sessions with regional pathologists. They say that one needs to clearcut fifty feet beyond the last infected tree if you are trying to make an area safe, like along a road or campground.
The district finally got the go ahead and clearcut a small area near the school, along the road that the schoolbusses go on. We couldn't sell it for logs, and we weren't allowed to sell all of it, but were able to make a firewood sale out of it.

Hazard tree removal along the main roads is supposed to be a priority but it isn't moving along very well. It took getting a guy killed to finally get some action. The people in charge say it is a priority but then don't do anything because there is no budget for it. A local faller tried to volunteer to do it for free, but he was told he'd have to get certified, and could not get certified for trees above 24 inches dbh. So that was a no go. Finally, enough funding came through to do 6 miles. Some of those trees were also sold as firewood a month or so ago.

Root rot pockets are all over, and the last timber sale we sold had borax application in the contract. It also had the marking of the infected tree stumps required. Now, can one identify infected trees when operating a feller buncher? And, will the operator be willing to get out of the machine to mark the stumps? Those are a couple more things to throw into the discussion. Some guys like to get out and stretch their legs, others do not.

Such things will drive you crazy. I am sleeping much better since retiring.

Oh, there is much less defect in the second growth stands, and better utilization. I did find some excessive long butting at times, and also when a processor is used on the landing, there is more. When the market crashed, the mills became pickier.
Gotta watch that.

 

[Humptulips]

I logged a few units in the Bremerton Watershed. They were all thinning units and badly infected with laminated root rot. We were given a short course on identifying it and told to cut every tree within 50 feet of infected trees. It was impossible. It was so prevalent that we would have ended up opening up half the ground. In fact we started out doing like we were told and were chewed out for cutting to many trees.
So what do you do? The area is never going to be cleared of the root rot. Even if you plant to alder there will always be a few fir come up and you have to leave willdlife trees and RMZs. Looks hopeless to me.

 

[Humptulips]

Good morning, MadHatte.
I've had a lot to do with Phellinus weirii otherwise known as laminated root rot. We've also done the parallel cuts into the stump for ID purposes. Seems like they've tried everything from Borax to bees wax to get this under control. From what I've learned about it it stays in the soil about 100 years if there isn't a species of tree that feeds it. The Gifford Pinchot has tried planting western white pine in areas that are overly affected. As you drive east on Hwy 12 through Randle and slow down to look. the whole southern aspect on the north side of the highway is infected.

Interesting that you say they planted Western White Pine. On the west side of the penninsula they don't stand a chance. Everyone of them eventually sucumbs to White Pine Blister Rust. Do they not have that problem there?

 

[madhatte]

This thread is yielding much better information than I could have hoped for.

What I'm getting from the group as a whole is that not only are the non-foresters in this bunch hip to forest pathology, but the Level Of Knowledge is equal to or better than a good number of forestry types I have worked with! This is very encouraging.

Second, I doubt that we'll ever find a "cure" for this disease; it's a native, endemic pathogen and has co-evolved with the Pine family such that it is essential in the seral pathway to mature forests in that it is an agent for creating openings of a size sufficient to put light on shade-intolerant seedlings. Without these openings, it would be very hard for a canopy to develop more than one layer at a time. It would take catastrophe such as fire or landslides for seedlings to germinate and get established.

Regarding white pine -- The USFS and the Army Corps Of Engineers at Dorena, OR have been working for some time to produce blister-rust resistant seedlings. We've been planting them here for I think three years and so far their survival has been good; however, we don't have a formal survey of Ribes populations so we won't be able to correlate future mortality due to the Blister Rust unless we get cracking.

Finally, thank you all for helping me with this project. I'll let you know what I find.

 

[Humptulips]

Madhatte,
On the Blister Rust I'd say three years is hardly long enough to know if it will survive. Around here I've noticed most of the trees last to get of fair size but not merchantable before they become infected. Often they grow big enough to produce cones. There is an occasional tree that is resistant and survives and I thought at one time they might repopulate the area with resistant seedlings but there are too many of the non-resistant ones produce seeds before they die.
Beautiful tree though. The Quinault Indian Res had thousands of old White pine snags and often they would still have a good log or two in them. Rarely there would be a green tree. I logged a 7 foot pine that was green just south of the Queets in the 70s. Probably should have left it for its genes.

 

[madhatte]

Funny you should mention the Quinaults. While these seedlings are from the Dorena resistance collection, the original stock came from the Quinault reservation, and I'm pretty sure the nursery where they were grown was there as well. I think we got them from DNR. These are F4 or F5 generation resistant, and should be OK for a good while. We have a handful of earlier generations' plantings here and there and they're all dead or nearly so at less than 20 years old. That blister rust is no joke.

 

[RPM]

We plant the Idaho resistant White pine in some of our planting mixes. It’s usually limited to sites with high incidence of Armillaria root rot and where we can't do any mechanical site prep / stumping. We limit it to 10-15% of the stocking and mostly for some variety. White pine is prevalent throughout my area, however it is noticeably lacking from some age classes (0-20) and (21-40). It appears that around here if the White Pine can make to 40+ years they do ok. Then they just have to compete with bears and porcupines who like to strip the bark off of them.

Too bad because the White pine around here grows like a weed if it can.

 

[madhatte]

I have an idea I want to run past you guys.

If I can find one of those free online quiz sites where you can upload whatever you want and get answers like "WHICH HARRY POTTER CHARACTER ARE YOU", and instead have pictures of real-life situations, would you be willing to participate? I'm trying to quantify the difference between what the 'Ologists "know" and what the Guy With The Saw KNOWS.

I haven't looked for a site yet, and I don't want to do a multiple-choice kind of quiz, because I know very well that there's no "Right" answer to a lot of circumstances" What I'm looking for is a sentence or two on "What would you do if you saw this and why?"

Rest assured that I'll agonize over the pictures to make sure that I'm neither asking things I already know the answer to nor asking the impossible. I'm interested in overlaying common atop common, and hoping to close the gap between cruise and mill.

 

[slowp]

I will offer this tidbit. The Guy With The Saw is a lot more intelligent than the 'ologists think. Most are smarter and quicker to figure out the new stuff than I am.

However, from my point of view, cutting prescriptions should be kept as simple as possible. Several of us, cutters, siderod, silviculturist and I had to huddle around one particular prescription and it took a while to figure out what the writer meant. That one was done out of house. Garbage in, garbage out.

When you have to do that, things are getting a bit too complicated.

The person that puts the contract together also was having a hard time translating the specialist jargon.

The simpler, the better.

 

[2dogs]

Does anyone here disinfect their equipment before moving to a new site? I would not think a move say 10 miles would need disinfection but how about a move of 50 or 100 or 300 miles?

I deal with pitch canker, blue stain, brown cubicle rot, SODS, beetles, and maybe others.

 

[Gologit]

I will offer this tidbit. The Guy With The Saw is a lot more intelligent than the 'ologists think. Most are smarter and quicker to figure out the new stuff than I am.

However, from my point of view, cutting prescriptions should be kept as simple as possible.

The simpler, the better.

Exactly right.

 

[slowp]

Does anyone here disinfect their equipment before moving to a new site? I would not think a move say 10 miles would need disinfection but how about a move of 50 or 100 or 300 miles?

I deal with pitch canker, blue stain, brown cubicle rot, SODS, beetles, and maybe others.

The Forest Service 2400-6 contract has a provision in the B section (boilerplate nation-wide) where equipment cleaning, not disinfecting, is required before coming onto the timber sale, and between units if there is a noxious weed problem As Shown On The Timber Sale Map. The sale that was being put together when I left was going to have cleaning required between areas in one unit because there were bad weeds in one little section. This is more for noxious weed control than disease control. There is a C provision (region wide) for disinfecting (tire bath?) in the Port Orford Cedar areas.

Note that the word CLEANING is used. Not WASHING.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

This disease is one that I'm not very familiar with. There must not be much of it around the Portland west suburbs.

One article I read, said that stumps could be blown or pulled loose from the ground and that air drying was sufficient to kill the fungus.

If air is bad for this fungus, how does it move around from area to area? Or is it just confined mainly where it has been for centuries?

Also, if the disease can move on equipment, and air drying kills it, wouldn't air-drying of equipment be sufficient to prevent spread by way of equipment?

 

[2dogs]

This disease is one that I'm not very familiar with. There must not be much of it around the Portland west suburbs.

One article I read, said that stumps could be blown or pulled loose from the ground and that air drying was sufficient to kill the fungus.

If air is bad for this fungus, how does it move around from area to area? Or is it just confined mainly where it has been for centuries?

Also, if the disease can move on equipment, and air drying kills it, wouldn't air-drying of equipment be sufficient to prevent spread by way of equipment?

Are you still using the converted cargo trailer? I love that build and have it in my favorites file.

 

[2dogs]

The Forest Service 2400-6 contract has a provision in the B section (boilerplate nation-wide) where equipment cleaning, not disinfecting, is required before coming onto the timber sale, and between units if there is a noxious weed problem As Shown On The Timber Sale Map. The sale that was being put together when I left was going to have cleaning required between areas in one unit because there were bad weeds in one little section. This is more for noxious weed control than disease control. There is a C provision (region wide) for disinfecting (tire bath?) in the Port Orford Cedar areas.

Note that the word CLEANING is used. Not WASHING.

Thanks, I'll look that up. BTW is "cleaning" defined?

 

[slowp]

Thanks, I'll look that up. BTW is "cleaning" defined?

We defined it as getting the mud and dirt off the machine. Also, only the off road machines are required to be cleaned here. Yarders, and log trucks are usually on the road.

The 'ologists here were/are wanting to change that to all equipment which would make it hard for the log trucks and is beyond common sense. We don't require the tourists to clean their cars and they too are driving around.

Now, sounds like you are in a different area where cleaning may be further defined in the C part of the contract. Or, the fill in the blanks section of whatever contract you are using. There is a difference between cleaning for weeds and disinfecting to get rid of spores and such.

Do you have to set up a wash station?