High performance glass questions: replacement windows

[atlarge54]

Who has had any high quality glass experience? The glass experts I've talked to in the past have always warned about bad seals, etc. The last windows I put in were standard thermopane with the e-glaze coating. What is a typical R-factor for the newer high performance glass?

I'm looking to replace ten 32"W x 54"H single pane double hung windows. That's a lot of glass in a small area. To make things easier there's no reason to have all these windows open, two double hungs would be plenty.

What kind of price premium would I be looking at for some high R-factor glass?

Thanks

 

[jcappe]

Eric Jeeper

You need to get in contact with ericjeeper. The man knows windows...well he knows alot of other stuff to but has helped me out in the past with window consulting and really knows his stuff.

 

[foursaps]

any r-factor will be better than what you have. today the norm is double pane insulated glass, with low e argon. many window manufactures use this as a standard for today, and will usually include this in a base price.

seal failures are always a possibility. i am the only sub contractor for a company that does window and door revitalization (taking old windows and bringing them up to today's standards, namely in historic buildings) but i also do warranty work for many big name window manufacturers. seal failures account for at most 10% of my business, and that is combined from the 6+ window manufacturers we do warranty work for.
depending on the manufacturer of the window sea failures can be covered under warranty. i know Simonton covers them for life.

when yo say 10 double hungs, are they mulled together? in the same room? in some cases fixed windows can cost more than a traditional double hung.

the r-value is determined by the window, there is not really a standard r-factor for all windows, there are many variables.
do you have a specific manufacturer you are biased towards?

 

[Wood Doctor]

I installed Bristol triple-pane argon gas windows in my house back in 2001 because I intended to live in my house for quite some time and I wanted comfort. They work, but they are not cheap. They are built like tanks and will last forever. I would do it again because it gets cold in Nebraska in the winter and hot in the summer. These windows do it all and they have a terrific repair warranty if anything breaks. Almost nothing has. Bristol stands behind its products.

 

[ericjeeper]

I feel I know a little about high power glass packs.

The best bang for your buck is going to be triple pane double lo-e with Krypton gas fill with a non conductive glass spacer ( I spec super spacer premium) On a triple pane this will give you a u-factor of .18.
when you see the shgc that is the amount of solar heat gain that the window will produce. In my opinion you do not really want a real low number there. two reasons.One it will be tinted dark.two The coldest days of winter are usually the sunniest.So you want to let some of that sunshine come in and warm your house..(Free heat)
In Indiana most people do not worry to much about their cooling cost,but when it gets right down to heating.Then they really notice it in their pocket book.
Super spacers have a very small ratio of seal failures as compared to The Intercept spacer by PPG.
In our master bedroom I have two different glass packages. On a cold night such as tonight the triple pane with krypton and super spacer has an interior glass temperature of 70° the double pane with argon and intercept spacer has an interior glass temp of 61°
R values do not really apply in windows. The standard way of measuring is U factor.
I hope I have been of some help to you.

 

[ericjeeper]

Will someone give Jcappe some rep for me.. Thanks.. Says I have to spread some love around first,.

 

[jorge016]

We've had the opportunity to put new windows in 2 homes in the past 5-6 years. Being from Minnesota-we went with 2 Minnesota suppliers. We put Marvin windows in our previous home in St. Paul. They were (if I recall correctly) double glass low-e argon filled windows with a U-factor in the .30 range (again if I remember correctly). These were wood replacement windows-beautiful windows, but we spent a lot of money. 22 windows installed including wrapping the exterior came in over $20 thousand. The payback period on energy savings looked to be pretty long. The comfort level of the house was greatly improved both in summer and winter.

We sold that house and moved to our farm and put in vinyl Hayfield windows. Hayfield's are manufactured in Hayfield, MN. They are low E argon filled with a U-factor of .29. I never thought that I would like a vinyl window, but I really like these. 11 windows came in at just over $5,000. We installed these ourselves-easy install. Their design made install and trimming them out a piece of cake. They've made this house a lot more comfortable in the winter. The only complaint I have is that the new windows are so quiet that I can't hear the solenoid on my CB 6048 open in the middle of the night. Small price to pay.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[atlarge54]

We've had the opportunity to put new windows in 2 homes in the past 5-6 years. Being from Minnesota-we went with 2 Minnesota suppliers. We put Marvin windows in our previous home in St. Paul. They were (if I recall correctly) double glass low-e argon filled windows with a U-factor in the .30 range (again if I remember correctly). These were wood replacement windows-beautiful windows, but we spent a lot of money. 22 windows installed including wrapping the exterior came in over $20 thousand. The payback period on energy savings looked to be pretty long. The comfort level of the house was greatly improved both in summer and winter.

We sold that house and moved to our farm and put in vinyl Hayfield windows. Hayfield's are manufactured in Hayfield, MN. They are low E argon filled with a U-factor of .29. I never thought that I would like a vinyl window, but I really like these. 11 windows came in at just over $5,000. We installed these ourselves-easy install. Their design made install and trimming them out a piece of cake. They've made this house a lot more comfortable in the winter. The only complaint I have is that the new windows are so quiet that I can't hear the solenoid on my CB 6048 open in the middle of the night. Small price to pay.

Good luck with your decision.

What size were the 11 windows, just an approximation would be fine. I replaced seven 36"W x 54"H a few years ago and they were about $1300. They were Jeld Wen vinyl and had e-coating. Certainly no high end stuff but adequate. Long long ago I bought Pella windows and was not impressed, quality didn't approach the price.
At $500 per window I could begin to justify the carpentry work to reconfigure the walls and reduce the sq. ft. of glass and add insulated wall space.

 

[ericjeeper]

What size were the 11 windows, just an approximation would be fine. I replaced seven 36"W x 54"H a few years ago and they were about $1300. They were Jeld Wen vinyl and had e-coating. Certainly no high end stuff but adequate. Long long ago I bought Pella windows and was not impressed, quality didn't approach the price.
At $500 per window I could begin to justify the carpentry work to reconfigure the walls and reduce the sq. ft. of glass and add insulated wall space.

Only downfall to reducing the window size.. Is Egress bedroom windows have a certain size requirement for emergency exits.

 

[wkpoor]

Let me add to this by saying Eric IS the window GURU! He has helped me greatly with my window issues. I couldn't be happier with the results of double lo-e with Krypton gas filled windows. So far I've found the new glass surface temp to be the same as the wall temp adjacent. Its a real deal what he says.

 

[davec]

Since you are talking about single pane windows, there isn't as much of an argument against doing the window replacement as there usualy is. In general, window replacement should be a much later energy improvement as you typically gain a lot more bang for your buck from proper wall and especially ceiling insulation and air sealing the house envelope. High efficiency heating appliances are another good bang for the buck item. If you haven't addressed those areas first, I would put the money and effort there before attacking the windows.

If you are in good shape in those areas, then ericjeepers adivce looked pretty good to me. But note that you always pay a lot more for that last bit of efficiency that gets you to the top of the heap. This is always the case with any "performance" rating in any area (cars, chainsaws...) If the rest of the home is not up to the same high energy efficiency levels, then that extra money spent on the last 5% improvement will not get you the benefit commensurate with the money you spend.

The final point are your intentions for this house. Will you stay there forever, or move in a couple years? You certainly won't get the payback if you overspend on windows and sell soon, but if you are working on upgrading the entire house for energy efficiency for the long run and you will stay there, then going a bit further on these items can make good sense.

This site is good for some research reading:
http://www.efficientwindows.org

Oh and R value = 1/U value. They are just the inverse of each other.

HTH
-Dave

 

[jorge016]

What size were the 11 windows, just an approximation would be fine. I replaced seven 36"W x 54"H a few years ago and they were about $1300. They were Jeld Wen vinyl and had e-coating. Certainly no high end stuff but adequate. Long long ago I bought Pella windows and was not impressed, quality didn't approach the price.
At $500 per window I could begin to justify the carpentry work to reconfigure the walls and reduce the sq. ft. of glass and add insulated wall space.

2 big pictures approximately 4 X 6 pictures which were spendy as we put in a combination - putting a double hung and a solid glass together. 4 were about 4' X 4'. 4 were 32" X 4'. 1 was a basement slider 28" X 4'. I got these from our small town lumberyard. They also repped Jeld Wenn, but after seeing the difference in quality over saving what I think was less than $100/window the decision to go with Hayfield was easy. My brother just redid all of his windows with Jeld Wen and was kicking himself after seeing mine. Hope this helps-need more info let me know.

 

[ericjeeper]

I will never bash another mans product.But any window that their highest performing glass package is PPG Intercept with lo-e and argon is so far antiquated by todays technology it is not even funny. Pella,Andersen and many others are still using technology that is 15 years old.
Seal failure rates run pretty high on windows using a metal spacer between the glass.
This new energy tax credit made a lot of the manufacturers step up to be eligible. But my window blows the tax credit numbers away.
With windows especially any near a seat or over a bed, it is not always about energy payback times. It is about stopping that cold from radiating through the lesser performing window.It becomes a Comfort issue. To me comfort far outweighs dollars..
I have a double pane lo e and argon window beside my desk in my office.. It is flat out miserable to sit next to on a night like tonight 9° outside..
I will not lie. My up charge to go from double pane argon to triple pane Krypton starts at 100$ per window unit. And picture windows might be as much as 200$ Do I sell a lot of triple? Heck yes. Once I do the demo on a 6 inch square glass pack with freeze spray. The 100 dollars is no longer an issue to 99% of most buyers.

 

[logbutcher]

All Marvin double pane. low-e, ARGON. No leaks, no problems, pretty exterior green aluminum cladding, wood frame and muntons inside.

Yes, I know the Maine Marvin rep (runner, triathalon thing) , but.....

Only problem was that they were/are very expensive, and fussy to install with specific instructions that are not what is usually done in building.
Right now it is ~8 F, NW 25-30 mph, dim sun ( no, not the food you fool :hmm3grin2orange: ). Both stoves are in their morning blast mode. You can just barely feel the outside cold with the palm pressed to the window glass. No frost or moisture on the glass. We're going on 10 years with the windows. Worth every dollar.

 

[atlarge54]

I priced some windows at Menards today.

Jeld Wen 32" x 54" picture (non opening) u of .3 were $150 each.

Crestline same size only triple pane krypton u of ??? were $350 each.

I'm leaning towards shrinking the total glass area to pick up some insulated wall space. The front wall of this house has about 60' of wall and is almost entirely windows. This house was built in 1953 and is on a small lake so pre-A/C, ventilation was a high priority.

 

[davec]

0.3 U is only "not horrible", it isn't really good. When you start approaching 0.25-0.20 U then you are in the pretty good window category, at least for thermal performance. The best window performance I have heard of was about 0.14-0.16. It may have improved since then, but the gains will become vanishingly small as technology seeks those last few percent.

Remember that U =1/R, so a U of 0.3 = R value of 3.33; U-0.2 = R 5.0; U-0.14 = R-7.15. Compare those number to wall insulation. Compare these to the basic insulation levels that are pretty common in new wall construction: R-13 to R-19 for walls. The best way to improve your window efficiency is to have fewer windows. They will always be worse than the wall they are in. So you balance window area (light, view) vs energy issues.

Also note that the jamb space around windows is often not well sealed, especially in older houses. Low expanding foam sealer in there is critical to making expensive new windows perform.

And remember you will always pay a LOT more for that last few percent of performance. Figure out how much $ is worth it for the application.

-Dave

 

[Taxmantoo]

Isn't the low-e more about blocking solar radiation? The carpet fades less, but on south facing windows wouldn't you use less energy with clear glass?

It seems like everything is rated for Southern California air conditioning needs.

 

[davec]

Low E is offset by SHGC (Solar heat gain coefficient). They are not direct opposites, but pretty close to it. The question is one of "do you want to prevent radiation heat from coming in (Low E), or do you want it to come in (High SHGC)?" Sunnier, southern zones tend towards low e for lower summer AC costs and northern zones with good Southern exposure will tend a bit more towards higher SHGC for lower winter heat bills due to better passive solar gain.

That is, if someone is actually thinking about this isssue...few do.

All these values are out there for basically every (decent) window. I think they are required by the govt but don't quote me on that point.

-Dave

 

[wkpoor]

I just installed 2 triple low-e with Kripton glass packs into a set of casements on either side of my bed that the actuall glass is 28x67 inches. Last night it was 9 degrees. I measured the surface temp of the wall and glass next to each other with an infared thermometer. They both read the same at 72 degrees. The old glass on the adjacent wall read 59 degrees measuered in the center of the glass. The new glass was the same even on the bottom edge. The old was 48 degrees at the bottom. This morning the old glass botton 2 inches was wet with condensation and the new glass was dry. Temp in the room was 65 degrees/33% RH. (We don't fire hard after bedtime and room temp goes down by morn.)
In a few years double with argon will be todays clear with air for window standards. Why install something thats already outdated. Go triple/kripton and be comfortable to the max. I did the test and am a new believer.

 

[davec]

I just installed 2 triple low-e with Kripton glass packs into a set of casements on either side of my bed that the actuall glass is 28x67 inches. Last night it was 9 degrees. I measured the surface temp of the wall and glass next to each other with an infared thermometer. They both read the same at 72 degrees. The old glass on the adjacent wall read 59 degrees measuered in the center of the glass. The new glass was the same even on the bottom edge. The old was 48 degrees at the bottom. This morning the old glass botton 2 inches was wet with condensation and the new glass was dry. Temp in the room was 65 degrees/33% RH. (We don't fire hard after bedtime and room temp goes down by morn.)
In a few years double with argon will be todays clear with air for window standards. Why install something thats already outdated. Go triple/kripton and be comfortable to the max. I did the test and am a new believer.

No arguments, but "it depends". What is the OP looking to do? Does he want to stay there forever? Does he want to make it saleable? Something in between? That is a key to what he should do. If he wants to stay forever, then your evidence is the perfect argument for getting the best you can...with the caveat that you need to improve the whole structure to match that.

-Dave