How long to wait on steady work?

[MonkeyMan_812]

How long did it take for most of you guys to stay busy all week every week? I mean I get busy spurts but this year sucked in a major way. Just trying to stay encouraged here. I'm to the point where I just think taking a job somewhere would be better off. I hear about these other guy being 2 or 3 months back logged. I'm trying to hang on but the stress and worry is starting to get to me. I think 25 hour with no worries might be better than all the stress of running a biz. Any suggestions.

 

[Grace Tree]

Merry Christmas brother,
Phil

 

[lumberjack333]

I was busy from March to the end of August this year, soon as the summer was over, work died off for the better part of september. I started getting concerned with my reserves dwindleing away so I jumped on board with another tree service through the fall and into the middle of this month. After September passed, my phone started ringing again so I had steady side jobs usually working sat sun for myself and five days a week for my boss... Now I'm foreman there, and signed on for my apprenticeship starting in January going till March and by then tree season will be firing up again for the new decade . I plan on investing some serious $$$ into my company next year, get myself a 1 ton dumper and a 6" chipper to make the sideies go that much smoother, and having the combined income and stress free lifestyle is much easier on me and my wallet. By the time I'm done my apprenticeship in 2011, if things go according to plan I'll be ready to branch out on my own with a little more equipment, knowledge and a stronger client base than before...

Long story short, do what you need to to survive... just don't lose sight of your personal goals.

 

[Tim'sTree]

Monkeyman asked a question that was also on the tip of my tounge. I'm going into my third year. This past one was much busier than my first, but I wasn't close to five days a week steady. So to the guys with an ongoing backlog of work- how many years did it take?

 

[mckeetree]

I'm to the point where I just think taking a job somewhere would be better off. I think 25 hour with no worries might be better than all the stress of running a biz. Any suggestions.

Unless you have a ton of money invested in the tree business then I think you would be better off with a regular job if you can get one that is any good. I was just talking yesterday with another tree service owner about how this business has changed over the past 30 years. There was a time when a guy that didn't have a lot at stake could make some money in the tree service business but not anymore. Illegal aliens, economic climates like we have never seen before, consumer education and the internet have changed the rules of the game. If I could go back in time 25 years and know what I know now I would have never got in this business. Trimming and removals used to be the cash cow for most all small companies. That has changed without many small guys figuring it out. Trimming and removals are getting exponentially cheaper when you inflation index against 20 years ago and I guarantee it is going to get worse if the train stays on the same track. It cost me a lot of money every month to just keep the doors open. If I had not rolled with the punches and adapted somewhat to what has been coming at us as an industry I would have been out of business a long time ago. I know several guys right here close to home that have struggled along in the tree business for years now. There was a good thread about that sometime back. I guess they just didn't want to work for someone else. Lots of them have beat at the profession going back and forth in it from part time to full time. I know one guy who is 51 years old, has been doing the tree service thing for 25 years and I bet you he doesn't have $10,000 in savings. Twenty five years, less than $10,000 in savings, no insurance and no retirement. That sucks if you really think about it. The bottom line is this....to do any good in this business anymore you have to get a little bigger than most guys want to get, owe more money than what you feel comfortable owing, have A+ credit, apply yourself 110%, put in way more hours than you would like to, accept the fact you have to have and deal with employees, practically be married to the business, spend a lot of time on customer development, offer every service imaginable related to trees and be set up and licensed to do it, never look desperate and look good chewing through a concrete wall if you have to.

 

[teamtree]

I have been in the business for about 10 years and I still don't have enough work to keep 3 guys busy all year round. I left a great corporate job and started doing tree work because I loved the work. I feel like if I can control my expenses this year I will make a turn for the best. But with fuel prices higher, insurance premiums rising, unemployment taxes doubling it is getting harder and harder to make a decent living, if one at all. Now you climbers are a different story....you have a different set of skills than I and you can generate more money from climbing where I hire it out. I am a bucket baby.

I am lucky to have a wife with a great job that pays most of the bills until I get things paid off but we struggle when customers don't pay in a timely fashion. I try to take on as much work as possible but I just don't see the opportunities that I did 5 years ago. New competition from various areas is a big concern.

I know how much you love tree work, but to reinvent the wheel is getting harder and harder. The bigger players are getting really efficient and can do more while you are struggling to buy a chipper or loader to get you in the same ballgame.

I am trying to diversify my business and I see an opportunity to sell and plant trees. Nice margin, little equipment, no saws or climbing necessary. I am also looking at new ways to get my business name out there.

Think about our industry compared to others....we get much less money than landscapers, excavators, building contractors and our industry requires expensive equipment and more risk. For example, I know guys who get $900 for there excavator and labor (1 guy, 150k piece of equipment plus hauling eq) vs. 3 guys 300k in equipment that gets 1500k per day.

I am going to hang around for a couple more years and see what happens, then I may go back to accounting or sales.

Have a Merry Christmas!!!!

 

[Rftreeman]

times are rough......

 

[tree MDS]

Unless you have a ton of money invested in the tree business then I think you would be better off with a regular job if you can get one that is any good. I was just talking yesterday with another tree service owner about how this business has changed over the past 30 years. There was a time when a guy that didn't have a lot at stake could make some money in the tree service business but not anymore. Illegal aliens, economic climates like we have never seen before, consumer education and the internet have changed the rules of the game. If I could go back in time 25 years and know what I know now I would have never got in this business. Trimming and removals used to be the cash cow for most all small companies. That has changed without many small guys figuring it out. Trimming and removals are getting exponentially cheaper when you inflation index against 20 years ago and I guarantee it is going to get worse if the train stays on the same track. It cost me a lot of money every month to just keep the doors open. If I had not rolled with the punches and adapted somewhat to what has been coming at us as an industry I would have been out of business a long time ago. I know several guys right here close to home that have struggled along in the tree business for years now. There was a good thread about that sometime back. I guess they just didn't want to work for someone else. Lots of them have beat at the profession going back and forth in it from part time to full time. I know one guy who is 51 years old, has been doing the tree service thing for 25 years and I bet you he doesn't have $10,000 in savings. Twenty five years, less than $10,000 in savings, no insurance and no retirement. That sucks if you really think about it. The bottom line is this....to do any good in this business anymore you have to get a little bigger than most guys want to get, owe more money than what you feel comfortable owing, have A+ credit, apply yourself 110%, put in way more hours than you would like to, accept the fact you have to have and deal with employees, practically be married to the business, spend a lot of time on customer development, offer every service imaginable related to trees and be set up and licensed to do it, never look desperate and look good chewing through a concrete wall if you have to.

Alot of wisdom went into that post.

Thats about what I'm seeing the farther along I get.

 

[Uncle John]

I'm afraid the economy will get worse before it gets better.

 

[ArborSmithNw]

I know this is a major point of contention for some fellas here, so I will go ahead and just preface with "this is just my opinion"...

Direct selling. (aka door knocking) For any call you receive & get invited to bid on, force yourself to not go home until you make contact with 10 or so homeowners that live in the area that look like they could use some pruning, even if its just a hedge.

Sitting home waiting for your phone to ring can really bring down your moral. At least if you're out talking to people you are not focused on not having work.

Again, it's just my opinion that I know others are completely opposed to. But I also know I am sitting on a 3 week back log of 40 hour weeks & have only been running this outfit for a year.

Merry Christmas & good luck through the rough patch.

 

[tree MDS]

I've been at this thirteen years, and its still hard to stay busy all the time like that. But then being young and stupid along the way I only went after the type of work I really wanted to do (takedowns), rather than work at developing a more diverse clientel. I'm hoping its not too late though as I dont want to end up like mckeetree's example.

Alot of fighters in this biz and you are (unless your daddy got deep pockets or you deal drugs) more than likely going to have to be one of them in order to make it. I'm not so sure taking a job working for someone else is really fighting, and thats not really fair to your potential employer either - because if and when the economy finally shifts, your more than likely gonna just run back out on your own. but then the tree biz is full of people using other people and vice versa anyways...so I guess thats just business as usual.

Ah whatever, I got some some drinking to do...later

Oh yeah, Merry Christmas all!

 

[mckeetree]

I know this is a major point of contention for some fellas here, so I will go ahead and just preface with "this is just my opinion"...

Direct selling. (aka door knocking) For any call you receive & get invited to bid on, force yourself to not go home until you make contact with 10 or so homeowners that live in the area that look like they could use some pruning, even if its just a hedge.

Sitting home waiting for your phone to ring can really bring down your moral. At least if you're out talking to people you are not focused on not having work.

Again, it's just my opinion that I know others are completely opposed to. But I also know I am sitting on a 3 week back log of 40 hour weeks & have only been running this outfit for a year.

Merry Christmas & good luck through the rough patch.

Part of what I was talking about is how customers perceive you. You are cementing the fact that you are perceived as a "door knocker." Around here that is not too good a tag to have hung around your neck. No matter what you do or think you kinda have that vacuum cleaner salesman stigma attached to you. I think if you are going door to door and doing any good with that you are either cheap as an illegal alien or worse yet cheaper than one. A man watching me type this just commented "All he is really doing is just aggravating the community and making real tree care companies look bad as a profession." I have to agree with that. Plus I think you are about 99% hogwash based on what you have posted since you joined and that is my opinion.

 

[treesquirrel]

This has been a roller coaster year for me. And currently the roller coaster is down in a low valley.

Hang in there. I do anything I can drum up. Currently I am lined up to do some odd bobcat jobs and I even have some concrete work to do. Diversify when it is slow. Three weeks ago I was fairly busy, today its dead as far as tree work goes. I have one job and I am waiting for the ground to dry up.

 

[MonkeyMan_812]

I'm not so sure taking a job working for someone else is really fighting, and thats not really fair to your potential employer either - because if and when the economy finally shifts, your more than likely gonna just run back out on your own. but then the tree biz is full of people using other people and vice versa anyways...so I guess thats just business as usual.

Actually I would not run back to being on my own. The shortage of work is just the staw that broke the camels back as far as a reason to get out of the business for myself goes. Im thinking that a clock-in clock-out situation would be better than having to deal with all the headache. If I'm not making good money doing it (working for myself) than I'll just go climb for another company. But I would agree with you about people using others to get started on thier own. Ive seenit and heard about it at least a half a dozen times.

 

[jefflovstrom]

McKeetree said it. We have work booked year around. 10 year old company and every year has been better than the last. We don't do residential and we don't advertise, we market, and with 12 guys do 1.5 million (this year), but it does take money to make money. I think the owner spent about 100,000 this year in marketing which cost more than advertising. I think the biggest hits to companies is homeowners cutting back and lots of competition. My competition is big companies.
Jeff

 

[TreeClimber57]

But I would agree with you about people using others to get started on thier own. Ive seenit and heard about it at least a half a dozen times.

Absoutely!! Happens a lot.

It is a tough business to get into, and tough to hang in there.

I was somewhat fortunate, as I started with well over $100K in cash in back pocket to drop into this business, that allowed me to pick and choose a wide variety of equipment (although I had to pick up used equipment at that). On top of that I had enough spare cash to allow me to ride two years without making a dime for myself - as long as I didn't loose too much in the business.

Even at that it slows down in winter somewhat. And I have since opened up a lawn care side to business as well, which allows a lot of flexibility. (My heart is still with the tree side, but I love the ability to move guys around if necessary). I started the mowing side initially for my youngest son to give him a summer job (as I didn't have enough tree work at the time for somebody without experience). Now it is a good side business as it has pretty steady work from late spring into late fall.

I would love to simply take the winter months off myself, but some of the guys working for me can not handle the gap, so gotta keep going.

Regardless, back to original post. It really depends upon where you are and what you are doing. Right now I have all the work than I can handle (summer students are gone and back to regular staff). Just picked up nineteen jobs in the past week and half, most are fairly small jobs and most are removals, but pays the bills. Took me maybe five years to get to the point where I had the ability to say it carried me through the year, and by that time I had summer students and two full time workers (one a climber) with me.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

If I didn't own rental properties, free and clear, near the university, here, I could not afford to stay in the tree biz. As others have said, the economy is bad and I expect it to get worse, despite what the talking heads on TV blab about our "economic recovery." Also, McKee hit the nail on the head in his posts in this thread. We are dealing with many folks who will work for far less than we can. It comes down to a matter of either pricing like them and lowering your complete standard of living, or trying to do things right at the risk of not working at all. I am working on a "take it day to day" basis, right now, and I will decide in the next six months if I'm staying with the trees. If I decide to get out, it will be a fast and clean break, as I have done in my other professions of music (20 years) and tattooing (15 years). To hang in and die by degrees is far more painful, as I see it, than throwing yourself completely into a new profession and/or line of work. Thing is, I really enjoy tree work, and I'll hate to see it go, if I give it up.

 

[John464]

McKeetree said it. We have work booked year around. 10 year old company and every year has been better than the last. We don't do residential and we don't advertise, we market, and with 12 guys do 1.5 million (this year), but it does take money to make money. I think the owner spent about 100,000 this year in marketing which cost more than advertising.
Jeff

not sure what you mean but MARKETING is ADVERTISING. I spend about 50k a year in just marketing/advertising and its the single most important beginning step in running any business, not just tree care. SELL SELL SELL. how do you get sales? you put your company in their face. then you need the staff to handle the calls.

I however never would of started a tree care co in the past 5 years and would of been real reluctant in the past 10, because as mcktree said the big guys will swallow you whole. It takes over a mil in equipment thats been well paid for to make big profits nowdays, atleast in my area. Ya'll starting in the last 5yrs need some serious capital to compete with the big dogs. They are the only ones making real money because they can do it faster. Check out oldirty's posts. His boss I know is making great money cause he is ahead of his competition, not just another tree co, but better than them. To be the most profitable you have to be faster at generating leads and faster than your comp at doing the work. Add up what your biggest expense is, and that is time, which is paid by you for your laborers.

Most every other contractor is getting a better return on investment, electricians, plumbers, carpenters all see a higher profit margin per man after expenses. You either gotta really love this profession nowdays to begin a tree care co to settle with a less than 6 figure salary. do all the headaches make it worth it? running a tree care company involves putting up with a ton of aggrevation. love it or or go elsewhere for better money. Or lay your nuts on the table(risk) and think big. Find the biggest company in your area and analyze how you can beat them at the tree game, but be prepare to spend over a mil that would be much better invested in many other businesses

 

[TreeClimber57]

but be prepare to spend over a mil that would be much better invested in many other businesses

Definately have to spend a lot, no question about it. Even if you buy used. By the time you have trucks, trailers, dump boxes, chip boxes, chippers, bucket trucks, stump grinders - if you do that, saws, rope and rigging gear.. and that is only the beginning.. Then comes insurance, taxes, employees, accountant fees, buildings, on and on..

I dumped well over $100K a quite a few years ago in the first 12 months, then another $60K in the next year or so.. and think it has been at least $30K every year since. (that is just equipment in the field) This year think it was around $50 or 60K.. and I have already purchased another $30K which I will pick up in January of 2010. So the pain never really stops.

But it is fun

 

[John464]

Definately have to spend a lot, no question about it. Even if you buy used. By the time you have trucks, trailers, dump boxes, chip boxes, chippers, bucket trucks, stump grinders - if you do that, saws, rope and rigging gear.. and that is only the beginning.. Then comes insurance, taxes, employees, accountant fees, buildings, on and on..

I dumped well over $100K a quite a few years ago in the first 12 months, then another $60K in the next year or so.. and think it has been at least $30K every year since. (that is just equipment in the field) This year think it was around $50 or 60K.. and I have already purchased another $30K which I will pick up in January of 2010. So the pain never really stops.

But it is fun

i just added up your capital expenditures. you are right around $340k. 340k can buy a nice car wash that brings in over 200k a year and all you have is maintenance on the machines and refill soap. after your initial investment and then paying operating costs you would still be making more than 6 figures. you could watch via laptop while your cashier puts the cash into the register. people pulling up in line with cash in hand. no having to wait to they put their snarling dog away. no showing up less than 24hrs later to give an estimate and the job is already done. less hassle, less headaches. better return on investment. so many opportunities out there easier and less stressful than running a tree care company. the sad thing is I am plagued with having sap in my veins. I like this #### too much.