If the rope is too short...

[Nathan Wreyford]

Do you ever just tie them together?

I have 2 120ft ropes and a shorter one. Sometimes the 120 is too short. For access via footlock I just put a biner tween the splices so I have a 240ft rope When I get in the tree, seperate the lines and use a traditional system.

I have only done this twice. Yes it means you have a LONG footlock and you can't hit the ground once in work mode. To decend, I decend, stop, redirect the rope around the stem with my RG, and then hit the ground.


Note orange and green line together

 

[Nathan Wreyford]

2 pics going up

 

[treeman82]

I've done that several times with rigging lines, but never had the need to with climbing lines before, thank G-d.

 

[tshanefreeman]

So I take it that you biner is located at the top of your system so that you don't have climber over the join????

If so, you'll have to be careful that your 'biner isn't ontop of the attachment limb, because if it was, you would be side loading your 'biner.......not to mention probably twisting it.

I'll be interested in what others have to say. As long as the load is PROPERLY placed within the 'biner then you're probably fine. The only thing that I would worry about is if you need a fast escape from the tree..........say if you cut yourself. If you had to lanyard onto the trunk half way down, reposition your line, then proceed..............you could run out of time! Perhaps investing in a 300' line would be the safest route if you work in tall trees on a regular basis.

 

[NickfromWI]

There's nothing wrong with either of these methods. It's fun developing a personal technique that you like that allows you to ascend PAST where the bend (a knot that joins the ends of two ropes together) is.

love
nick

 

[arboromega]

well, i wont say this is ok nick. you introduced an new component into the climb. and more components just means another opportunity for failure. i keep a 150' rope and an 80' rope. you know you can always hit a lower limb and rope advance some. rope is not so expensive that you have to risk a hardware failure by linking two short one together.

 

[NickfromWI]

Arboromega, I must respectfully disagree with the ideas you give in your post. Yes, you are introducing a link, bus simply using a carabiner is not risking hardware failure any more than if you clip that carabiner from the rope directly to your saddle.

Carabiner's don't just BREAK. If they did, I wouldn't be using them...none of us would. The use the Nathan described is exactly what the manufacturers had in mind when they made the 'biners; an in line pull along the major axis/spine with soft (non-metallic) connections (ie other 'biners).

Your argument seems to imply that you would discourage the use of 'biners and snaphooks for saddle connection and would rather tie your climbing line directly to the d-ring on your saddle.

Erring on the side of caution is wise, but seems as if you're taking it a bit too far.

love
nick

 

[glens]

Not to mention that the carabiner was loaded only to half the load since we know Nathan knows to leave it short of the limb, and a carabiner is carrying full load at the saddle.

Nice scenery and weather make even a longer footlock a lot better than factory work.

Glen

 

[trzz]

come on guys. You make money on your ropes. We complain about customers being cheap when a hack does it for less but don't follow that same attitude toward ourselves. I own 2-120' 1-200' and get ready for this one 1-400'. Yea I know 400' is way excessive but in a weird scenario it could possibily be necessary. Blue moon ofcourse. I want a 600' reel cut into 4-60' 3-80' 1-120' and 200' xtra. This way I can retire a rope on job and not have to leave to get one. and yes I can be excessive. Trzz

 

[wct4life]

I'm going to have to agree with Tshane and Arbor on this. The more components=more risk. Remember K.I.S.S. I trust Krabs as long as I can see them. After you send one up a tree, you can't tell what might have happened to it.

Once, I isolated a line in a tree, with a pulley on the end and my climbing line through it. The pulley was attached to a Krab and the knot I used was an 8 on a bight w/ girth hitch. after ascending I noticed that the girth hitch rolled down, and actually unlocked my tri-act krab. After that, I decided never again.

 

[Gord]

what nathan describes is perfectly acceptable. he's in exactly the same situation when ascending as if he was only on a singled rope, doubled. he's not suggesting to work the tree with an unpassable spot in his work line, which would be dangerous, nor would he let the biner side load on the top of the limb i would hope.

a good example of making a system unecessarily complex and dangerous is what wct4life describes. yikes!

i depended on many ropes tied together, more for pulling trees over and rigging than for ascending tho. i've got a 200' rigging line and have had to tie on another short one so that both ends would be on the ground.

 

[xander9727]

I feel this technique is safe for entering a tree. I do not feel that it is a good idea to work in a tree with a rope that is too short to reach the ground. This is a recipe for disaster. If you don't have an out things can go from bad to horrible in short order. Will it probably cause a problem......No. Will it possibly cause a problem.....Yes. I guess it all depends on how much risk management you want to deal with. Personally I have used techniques like this in a pinch. I wouldn't however, use them as a SOP.

 

[bottlefed89]

I agree with xander in that any line too short to reach the ground could spell disaster, not in every day work, but in emergency situations minds may not think quick enough.... I also agree with what wct learned, keep it simple, I'd say it was good to retire the method he described. I agree that the biner would be fine, and I would feel safe enough climbing on it - regardless of where it is in your rigging, I'm sure everyone of us is putting atleast as much stress on a biner at some point in the day; but like treeco said, I'd rather trust myself in knot tying in a situation like this in which I couldn't see the connection.

 

[Can-Do-It]

Excellent, excellent thread. The bottom line is that everyone is thinking about playing it safe.

Good job people. :angel:

 

[Tom Dunlap]

When I need to tie two ropes together I use double fisherman's knots. Compact and neat. I really like the rope configuration too. The mechanics of the knot/hitch seem to work really well.

Why not use a biner to clip two splices? Any good reasons?

KISS is a good plan. But...if you only have two short ropes whaddya gonna do?

Having a line that goes all of the way to the ground is a good practice. There comes a height when this is impractical though. I'd venture to say that over 95% of the climbing is done below that height though.

 

[NeTree]

That's the beauty of living around here. The only trees you'd need anything longer than a 150 footer on are pines and the odd poplar- and even then only rarely.



Joining was cool, but if you plan/expect to have to work at that height again, invest in a single rope long enough to reach.

I don't think I'd have used the biner though, if only because once it's out of reach you have no control over it.

 

[Nathan Wreyford]

Glad that stimulated conversation.

The 1st time I used this techn I used fisherman's knots but found them hard to untie after being loaded. Especially with the forearm burn from an 80ft footlock.

I view this as a safe way in a pinch

If done daily, I would buy another line. Twice a year I can't justify buying a long rope for that. Plus I am a bit more mobile than most of you.
I finally found my answer.

To make it safer I should have left the 2 together as an entry line/rescue line/self rescue line and then used a 3rd line to do the work.

 

[glens]

Use the connecting 'biner as a false crotch for the third line.  hahaha!

 

[Wilson_tree]

How about using an escape system similar to one you might use blocking down a big spar? Ascend on your two connected ropes, and when you get to the top tie in with your lanyard. Set up your normal working line, and take the second rope from the system and tie it in with a running bowling. Then connect a figure eight to that line and your harness and go to work. If you need to make an emergency descent, cut your primary lifeline and lanyard and descend on the line with the figure eight that is already in place.

 

[Nathan Wreyford]

My issue with the running B in this senario was retrieval. I could have used a throwline for that......or I could have just used my 3rd line for a work line while leaving the 2 connected as a rescue/escape line.