Installing a false crotch or friction saver

[rbtree]

cut off the big ring on the saver and replace it with a krab.

I've long since dispensed with ring/ring friction savers. I use adjustable ones, biner and pulley on one side, prussic on other side with large biner.....

In transit from my splicer Nick is 5 lines for the crew and a friend....4 Blaze and a Tachyon.....and a 48 inch f/s...which will complement my two shorter ones nicely.

Nice, and way cheaper than a RG, or the knockoff RG that Sherill sells. Plus the hardware can be removed and used for other tasks if need be.

 

[RedlineIt]

Keep in mind that a floating false crotch, set up like this, will put 2x the load on your tie in point. I agree that it works nice but you have to choose tie-in points more carefully.

Ted-RI,

True! Must always be considered and should always be noted on a forum like this where there are who knows how many lurkers gleaning ideas for their next climb. Good catch, Thanks!

I've long since dispensed with ring/ring friction savers. I use adjustable ones, biner and pulley on one side, prussic on other side with large biner.....

rbtree,

I also home-brewed a rope guide, but haven't found an affordable, reliable splicer, so mine are cinched down with Double fisherman's loops, which increase their snaggabilty in tighter crotches upon release...other than that, same idea, the micro-pulley acts as the small ring.

Question: Do you ever use yours on spar work, with your RG prussic adjusted to keep about 2"-3" gap between the big end 'biner and the small end micro-pulley, with your climbing system pre-attached and acting as the slack as you spur up and advance this whole she-bang just under your lanyard?

The concept is you have an immediate escape route if you have to bail for any reason from hornet/wasp attack ,to a non-incapacitating injury, to your groundie needing immediate 1rst Aid, to experiencing an earthquake while on a spar.

It's also supposed to make gaffing out a mere inconvenience, and make an assisted aerial rescue of an incapacitated climber on a spar a much easier job for the rescuer.

I've tried it, and honestly both your gaffs could break simultaneously and you're not going anywhere but a 6" drop onto your Ddrt system.

First time I used it I found it a bit of a PITA, but as I got used to it, like anything new, I started to get the feel for it and get a method down.

Any one else try this system?


RedlineIt

 

[senechal]

there is a push around here to get climbers off of the double lanyard and onto choking friction savers or similar custom adjustable ring n rings, or at the very least a choking running bowline to grigri or ID SRT safety on spar operations.

I find that in addition to the key benefits of rescue (self or otherwise) capabilities, it makes big wood or tough angles a lot more comfortable and easy.

Set a tail from your friction saver prussik or choking running bowline to grigri and drop down to your next position. Lanyard in, make notch in the comfort of your overhead tie in, then drop your safety to above your block and commence backcut. Thus taking a lot of pressure off the usual spur pressure points, and eliminating climbing aid stubs entirely.

Like any new gear or technique, people are slow to embrace it even within a company with crews that insist on said techniques and gear.

 

[senechal]

Oh and Redlineit, Andrew Fredrikse is your splicing source in Canadian dollars and as far as shipping I'm sure he could be enticed. He does all splicing for Commercial Solutions (CFE) and private splicing for a growing list of arborists around these parts. Tight eyes on adjustable ring n rings, double braids, all that good stuff. PM me if you need his contact.

 

[D Mc]

Keep in mind that a floating false crotch, set up like this, will put 2x the load on your tie in point. I agree that it works nice but you have to choose tie-in points more carefully.

I understand why this statement comes up. Unfortunately, it has the affect of preventing people from trying this method due to the fear that statement creates. In the real world of using this technique, there are many benefits.

First it is a very fast system to set, requiring only one end of the line for isolation. The other end of the line will be, almost without exception, routed over many different backup branches. When you set an individual friction saver or rope guide over a single tie in point, if that breaks you are SOL. On the floating false crotch, if you have set it up properly, it will just fishing pole down to the next crotch.

Also you will never get your friction saver stuck on retreival. I use this system frequently. Ascending the line in SRT, lanyarding in, having my floating false crotch/pulley hauled up to my TIP, reanchor the tie in point rope via Port-a-wrap and go to work doubled rope technique. This allows me to examine my chosen TIP prior to working and make adjustments if necessary. Also ascending on the frog walker system is MUCH smoother on the tip than footlocking or hip thrusting.

Just some more thoughts to be considered for an informed decision.

Dave

 

[pdqdl]

...
First it is a very fast system to set, requiring only one end of the line for isolation. The other end of the line will be, almost without exception, routed over many different backup branches. When you set an individual friction saver or rope guide over a single tie in point, if that breaks you are SOL. On the floating false crotch, if you have set it up properly, it will just fishing pole down to the next crotch.

...
Dave

I was thinking those exact thoughts, although I have yet to try out this technique. I had some other thoughts as well:
1. The line holding the false crotch is not "actively used" by the climber or the groundies, and could get ignored at a critical moment. I always fear whoever is below me, and I would be afraid to let them near my main support.

2. It subjects the climber to much greater risk from cutting the line that holds him. At least in theory, the supporting line will always extend somewhere to the ground, rather than being isolated above the climber and the saw, increasing the number of feet of critical rope being used, and thereby increasing the probability of an accident.

3. If a large tree section managed to snag the middle of the tied off line, the climber could be yanked upward or break off the branch supporting the false crotch.

I'm sure that this method has many uses, but I suspect that it will not ever become my primary technique to work in a tree. I'll be sure to experiment and learn more about it, however.

 

[D Mc]

I was thinking those exact thoughts, although I have yet to try out this technique. I had some other thoughts as well:
1. The line holding the false crotch is not "actively used" by the climber or the groundies, and could get ignored at a critical moment. I always fear whoever is below me, and I would be afraid to let them near my main support.

This is a common concern I hear often. But on the other hand, if you fear their ability to stay away or not entangle your support line, would you be able to trust those same groundmen to perform a complex aerial rescue? Truly most aerial rescues are beyond the scope of your average groundman. With the floating false crotch tied off to a Port-a-Wrap, a ground based rescue can be initiated immediately after removing the secondary lanyard, as necessary.

2. It subjects the climber to much greater risk from cutting the line that holds him. At least in theory, the supporting line will always extend somewhere to the ground, rather than being isolated above the climber and the saw, increasing the number of feet of critical rope being used, and thereby increasing the probability of an accident.

This does require some reassessments of cutting techniques and a vigilance that should be there already. I can't believe how many climbers are constantly cutting and nicking their lines, even with their hand saws. Even without the floating false crotch, your climbing lines are always right in front of your lap where a lot of the cutting takes place. For the floating false crotch line, use a bright and different color from your other lines. This will help keep everyone aware of what is what.

3. If a large tree section managed to snag the middle of the tied off line, the climber could be yanked upward or break off the branch supporting the false crotch.

True. Don't do that.

I'm sure that this method has many uses, but I suspect that it will not ever become my primary technique to work in a tree. I'll be sure to experiment and learn more about it, however.

I will encourage you to experiment with it. We are of similar ages. My primary reason for starting with this system was for a ground-based rescue. I have been injured enough times to not be too concerned about getting myself to the ground. I have done so in the past. However, I have never experienced a stroke or heart attack. My ability to handle those is an unknown. And they can happen.

An aside from this, I have found I really enjoy its simplicity and flexibility in setups. I initially fumbled around quite a bit but once I got the hang of it, it is actually faster with less effort than many other setups.

Dave

 

[pdqdl]

Thanks for hammering it into my head.

I was trying to figure out why you wanted to use the port-a-wrap, since it only increases the risk of coming loose. Now if you needed to be lowered from the TIP, that explains it all. Somehow, I wasn't seeing that.

I guess I am too rigid in my thinking. Being incapacitated never crossed my mind, much less trusting the groundies to do it reliably. I just make sure they have a phone and know how to dial 911. Our ground crews leave much to be desired, but I am constantly working on improving them.

And no, there is no chance whatsoever that my ground crew could pull off an aerial rescue, unless I was on the ground helping one of my climbers (usually the case, if I happen to be on the job).

 

[ropensaddle]

Thanks for hammering it into my head.

I was trying to figure out why you wanted to use the port-a-wrap, since it only increases the risk of coming loose. Now if you needed to be lowered from the TIP, that explains it all. Somehow, I wasn't seeing that.

I guess I am too rigid in my thinking. Being incapacitated never crossed my mind, much less trusting the groundies to do it reliably. I just make sure they have a phone and know how to dial 911. Our ground crews leave much to be desired, but I am constantly working on improving them.

And no, there is no chance whatsoever that my ground crew could pull off an aerial rescue, unless I was on the ground helping one of my climbers (usually the case, if I happen to be on the job).

I usually re-tie once I reach tip as I have a problem trusting
most ground dudes too:Eye: I have sometimes felt if it was
not for our compassion they would starve

 

[Ted-RI]

I understand why this statement comes up. Unfortunately, it has the affect of preventing people from trying this method due to the fear that statement creates. In the real world of using this technique, there are many benefits.

First it is a very fast system to set, requiring only one end of the line for isolation. The other end of the line will be, almost without exception, routed over many different backup branches. When you set an individual friction saver or rope guide over a single tie in point, if that breaks you are SOL. On the floating false crotch, if you have set it up properly, it will just fishing pole down to the next crotch.

Also you will never get your friction saver stuck on retreival. I use this system frequently. Ascending the line in SRT, lanyarding in, having my floating false crotch/pulley hauled up to my TIP, reanchor the tie in point rope via Port-a-wrap and go to work doubled rope technique. This allows me to examine my chosen TIP prior to working and make adjustments if necessary. Also ascending on the frog walker system is MUCH smoother on the tip than footlocking or hip thrusting.

Just some more thoughts to be considered for an informed decision.

Dave

I agree with all of it. I just wanted to mention it.

 

[pdqdl]

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more it appeals to me.

So far, I have zealously avoided SRT, and will probably continue that pattern. I don't have all the right toys, my lone ascender got stolen recently, and I'm getting quite a bit too soft to drag my lard butt up a tree on a single line without the right toys.

 

[D Mc]

PDQDL, you are absolutely right in avoiding SRT without the proper tools. I tried mickey-mousing it several different ways with never getting it to work. Finally purchased the recommended parts and, Oh what a difference! Once you get it dialed in it is, literally, as easy as walking up a ladder.

But just as true, the floating false crotch, doesn't have to be used with the SRT. It works very well with the doubled rope technique.

Dave

 

[ropensaddle]

Well my technique has changed somewhat but I install the pulley
the way I described earlier and tie my climb line off to my buckets
winch and take an elevator ride lol. The wife just kills the truck
on my hand signal and I go up a little more to slack her end she
unties when I am tied in! I know it sounds crazy but it works so
eazy, effortless ascent!

 

[pdqdl]

That's cheating. I'm gonna call ANSI & OSHA. I'm tellin !

If I trusted my groundies, I could always put my gas powered rope winch on the job and ride my own elevator up. Thank goodness I don't trust them, eh?

 

[ropensaddle]

That's cheating. I'm gonna call ANSI & OSHA. I'm tellin !

If I trusted my groundies, I could always put my gas powered rope winch on the job and ride my own elevator up. Thank goodness I don't trust them, eh?

That is the good thing about owing money my wife can't afford
to let me go

 

[OLD CHIPMONK]

Yea ! But she could forget to stop on your signal ! Life Insurance would pay off the debts & allow for a winter vacation in Hawaii !:jawdrop:

 

[ropensaddle]

Yea ! But she could forget to stop on your signal ! Life Insurance would pay off the debts & allow for a winter vacation in Hawaii !:jawdrop:

:hmm3grin2orange: I can't afford it yet so very careful I have to be
one slip and :jawdrop: She is very trustworthy been tested well;better
than half the young boys these days at working ethic