Kong Double Ascender

[Tree Machine]

keep asking QUESTIONS

Cam failure due to leaves, brush twigs. under our assumptions, ascenders are working properly, A OK, which means then that there are no leaves sticks and twigs in it to begin with. Fair enough? That means the leaves sticks and twigs which are causing the cam to fail are from the actions of you ramming the ascenders through twiggy leafy zones?

Common sense moment here. This is one of the best things about ascenders is you're able to inch and move the set up the rope with exactness and absolute control. Do not be a gorilla. Please watch what you're doing.

Can you just assume some sense when going through thick stuff. This type of failure has never once happened to me personally, or come close to happening ever. Not to say that it can't, but leaves twigs, squirrel hair etc are easily avoidable.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

If you're making the step to try and backup the Kong ascender why not just bag the doulbed rope and go single? SRT is MUCH easier to back up. I'm continually amazed that arbos still hold onto DdRT when the rest of the world works on single. At least consider going to single for ascent.

Tom

 

[Chucky]

I'm starting to think Tom is right, and to ditch the idea of using Kong's double ascender on DdRT and just go SRT, at least to get the TIP set up and then work down the tree DdRT. I don't yet see a way to back up the system that is both safe and efficient. Not that I've given up yet, as I've seen the kind of creative and inventive ideas folks at this site have conjured up.

Today I tested the DdRT system as Glen did by using two CMI ascenders with a Klemheist hitch above, and upon releasing the cam on one of the ascenders I dropped like a stone. I know that would never happen using SRT.

And I do see protection the carabiner offers against the ropes escaping the ascender in Tree Machine's setup, and I appreciate the fact he's used the setup countless times with no problems. But even though I'd mostly use the setup on clear shots to the TIP, I'm still bothered by cam failure by a stick, or something.

The trouble with SRT is I can't seem to footlock it very well like I can with two ropes. It may just be poor boot soles, as Tree Machine wrote about, though I've tried with three different boots. I could use a Pantin, but most of my tree entries are only 20-60 feet, and I like to keep things as simple as possible.

Thanks, BTW, for all the responses and photos.

 

[jkrueger]

Originally posted by Tree Machine


[deletion]

I'll step up. Let's together figure out a standard. Let's be our own R and D lab. So far it's me and Nick from Wisconsin, on a mission to develop the most absolute, bombproof dual ascender backup system. A system boiled down to the least common denominator, simple, absolutely effective. Who else wants in on this experiment? Kruger?

This is what tree guys do for fun, eh?

Sure, and I'm still practicing with the Kong. Tried it yesterday, and had a hard time un-clipping it. The one I had tried out with last week was Big Johns, an older one and a little diferent in design. Of course mine is new and perhaps a little stiff. The distance of the connection to my saddle also has to be changed, had it a little long. I do like the long reach and yet, ....

Inorder to not have to reinvent the wheel, what kind of prussic cord are you using. The stuff I tried was OK after broken in and run a little, and that is not what one wants to use right off the roll, with a back up.

I had connected the prussic tied above the K to my biner connection below the handle to overcome the remachining the holes at the top for a binner.

I'll give it a little time today, with some other ideas.

Jack

 

[Chucky]

I tried various configurations of different friction hitches for a backup for the Kong double ascender, even made up ones, and a prusik knot around both ropes, as Nick suggested, worked great. It stopped me almost instantly when both ascender cams were released. It seems since the prusik is a symmetrical knot, it still works when the direction of a load is reversed.

 

[Chucky]

Under load after one ascender fails.

 

[Chucky]

The prusik rope is 5/16 Sta-Set. I attached it to a carabiner attached to my saddle's center D-ring, but I wonder if it would be better to attach it to carabiner attached to the Kong double ascender, as Tree Machine does? The biner would also serve to push up the hitch better than the ascender alone does.

 

[jkrueger]

Originally posted by Chucky
Under load after one ascender fails.

Thanks, I'll try your set up.

Didn't have time to do any testing today, rained out.

Jack

 

[Tree Machine]

Chucky, Man..... that's a good setup, I hadn't tried that approach. In fact, that may very well be the bombproof setup. Yer frickin brilliant. I'm encouraged that there are a few good ways to skin this cat already on the table.

Shall we start the book, "101 Ways to Back Up A Double Ascender "? This thread can act as the research, and we can compile the data at the end, make recommendations, etc.

There's a time and place for ANSI, but they just don't cover the how-to's of this particular topic. We have to take our own safety into our own hands an figger this one out for ourselves.

Getting started is easy. I send Nick from Wisconsin a hundred bucks, and he sends me an assortment of his world class splicery made from the latest high-tech fibers. That part's already done. What next?

Chucky, please clarify, the setup looks that it can be two possible ways: two seperate prusiks, the lower one fed through the upper one, or it is one contiguous cord fashioned into what we could mebbe call, "The Double Chuck."

I see your rope double-Chucked with one cord. Well Chucked, my friend. Can you see how the under Chuck loop might be fed through the over Chuck loop, as in a 2 Prussik system? I'll bet this method would work as well as the Double Chuck

 

[jkrueger]

Originally posted by Tree Machine
Chucky, Man..... that's a good setup, I hadn't tried that approach. In fact, that may very well be the bombproof setup. Yer frickin brilliant. I'm encouraged that there are a few good ways to skin this cat already on the table.

Shall we start the book, "101 Ways to Back Up A Double Ascender "? This thread can act as the research, and we can compile the data at the end, make recommendations, etc.

There's a time and place for ANSI, but they just don't cover the how-to's of this particular topic. We have to take our own safety into our own hands an figger this one out for ourselves.

Getting started is easy. I send Nick from Wisconsin a hundred bucks, and he sends me an assortment of his world class splicery made from the latest high-tech fibers. That part's already done. What next?

Chucky, please clarify, the setup looks that it can be to possible ways: two seperate prusiks, the lower one fed through the upper one, or it is one contiguous cord fashioned into what we could mebbe call. "The Double Chuck."

I see your rope double-Chucked with one cord. Well Chucked, my friend. Can you see how the under Chuck might be fed through the over Chuck with a 2 Prussik system? I'll bet this method would work as well as the Double Chuck

This a 'one' piece. One prusic and doulble with 2 lines. That's a good one. One thing only to untie.

??? why is there such a nice big hole at the top of his K, mine isn't like that.

Guess I'll go to try a screw link at the top. Itg will be only a tie point for the prussic.

Jack

 

[Chucky]

Ha! You're bustin' my gut, Tree Machine. "Double-Chuck!" At least you didn't call it an UP-CHUCK!

I got looking at the Tree Climber's Companion, and under the description of the Klemheist knot it mentioned that it becomes a different knot when the load is reversed -- unlike the Prusik. So, following up on Nick's suggestion, I decided to just tie two prusiks with the same loop on both ropes, and BINGO! -- it worked! So, yes, It's one continuous piece, though I don't see why two wouldn't work as well.

Now, I'm hoping you guys can tweak it with the Kong double ascender to make it practical, since I don't have one yet.

 

[Tree Machine]

Could it be original....?

Ok Chucky, you've got a few of us stirring with thought.

Did you just sorta wrap that thing and go, "Hey, that looks good."

Did you stumble into the Chuck wrap completely by accident, or are you highly trained in military high altitude tecnical personnel rigging.

Are you some hybridized, new school techno hitch whiz kid, or was this thing just pure, dumb luck.

You make me ponder, Chucky. Since climbing a dual rope is truly and solely a treeguy sort of thing, I really kinda doubt that you pulled it in from another industry, like S.W.A.T. or special ops. It would not come from the pit caving schools, nor the rock climbing world.

Are you even from this planet, Chucky? Do your people regularly develop hitches far beyond our earthly arboreal means?

Fess up. Wher'd ya get it ? Vee have vays to make you talk.....

 

[Chucky]

"Vee have vays to make you talk....."

Well, -TM-, as long as it doesn't involve the hitch, a tree, and my NECK, then OK, I'll talk.

No, it wasn't serendipity, just playing around with a bunch of friction hitches, and then the realization that Nick's suggestion of two prusiks was the one because of the knot's symmetry. It's Nick's idea, not mine. I just followed up on it and discovered experimentally that it works (at the expense of my ankles).

 

[Chucky]

You make me ponder, Chucky. Since climbing a dual rope is truly and solely a treeguy sort of thing, I really kinda doubt that you pulled it in from another industry, like S.W.A.T. or special ops. It would not come from the pit caving schools, nor the rock climbing world.

I'm too much of a peaceable kinda guy for S.W.A.T., I don't like bats, and I've tried rock climbing -- not for me. I'm just a tree guy. It took me nine years to switch from a tautline to a Blake's, and I still use it today. I'm just getting tired of humping to my TIP for pruning jobs, so I'm changing to footlocking, and one of Tree Machine's posts about ascending with a Kong double ascender intrigued me.

I know Tom Dunlap and others like SRT, and I've tried it, but I've never quite felt comfortable with it. I much prefer to footlock with a doubled rope because I get a better bite, and I don't like the idea of doubling the force on the branch I'm tied into with SRT. So, for me I'm thinking the double ascender is Da Bomb!


-Chucky
Neglect, Correct & Collect TREE SERVICE

 

[Tree Machine]

w h o a ... the earth shakes...

You're so modest. I'm about to offer you a Nobel prize in knot tying, nominate you for Knot Architect of the Year and crown you Grand Poobah of all new hitch inventors yet this decade.

It's Nicks???

I'm proposing that this ability to absolutely back up a dual ascender effectively opens the doors to new school climbing. You've broken through the barrier, light pours through from above, a white dove flys. A new hitch is born.

And you blame it on Nick? Dude, you are stealing your own thunder. You were on your way to fame, fortune and hot chicks and you're throwin it all away. Whadddaaa ya mean, Nicks idea? .

Nick,.... comment?

 

[Tree Machine]

Hmmmm.

To double ascender and footlock you will always have to isolate the limb and that is not always possible....or at least not always easy.

I'm not sure how you play the game, but isolating the limb is what I consider the funnest part of the Bigshot process. I look forward to isolating limbs, tracing the line over limbs so it will parallel it's mate.

Yea, with a little light tugging you get the bag swinging, and you release at the right moment to drop it over, or get it around the obstacle. If you are using ZingIt line, this shouldn't be any problem as the bag will always drop predictably (well, almost always).

This is an art form, in my eyes, to be looked forward to and expected. Not a 'problem'. Limbs that you trace over (esp the lower ones) become limbs you will stand on as you pass them. This is a good thing.

 

[jkrueger]

The 'chuck' and the 'nelson', one symetrical and one not.

I'm going to do some testing.

Later,
Jack

 

[Burnham]

Jack, to me it looks like Chucky is using a pair of CMI ascenders, not the Kong Double...that's why the hole on top is different.

Is that right, Chucky?

 

[NickfromWI]

Dan, great minds!!!!!!!

When I originally suggested putting 2 prusiks for the backup, I was thinking 2 separate tress cords. Then Chucky went and messed things all up. Thanks Chucky! Now we're making process.

Dan, last night I went back to the drawing board to try some things out and I'll be darned if I didn't come up with the exact same thing as you! I think this might be the best back-up when using the double ascenders.

Now, as you can see in both my and Dan's photos, this method spreads the lines apart a bit. Maybe not a problem as they'll end up going through the ascender anyway. But I've found a bit of a variation that might be better, and I have one crappy picture that should be clear enough to see. If you invert one of the prusiks, the two will mesh together better. I'll show you in the next post.....

 

[NickfromWI]

...okay, in this picture you can see how I tied one of the prusiks backwards. They squish together better.

I considered this setup for footlocking without ascenders. I see one advantage. If you take a lock but only grab ONE of the strands, you will still go up! The "old" way, you would stay in place if you only had a lock on one of the strands.

Now, I HAVE to mention this. While playing around, I checked to see what happens if you tie the prusik the normal way , one prusik going around two strands, then pull on the prusik and ONE of the strands. It still locks. It locked up just fine. The prusik (I was using a klemheist, actually) squeezed the two strands of the rope together.

Is this all moot?

love
nick