legal advice

[sharkfin12us]

I have a slight dilema.I have a guy that has been doing my stumps for about a year or more.He has a customer that is a lawyer.Stump contractor said he was interested in having some work done.Stump contractor asked me how much i charge for day rate.Day rate is 1200 for 8 hours.Lawyer went over what he wanted i believe on the phone with the stump contractor.Stumps are not just what he does.He does contracting.The lawyer was going to be away for the week and i was available to do the work.I meet the stump contrator and we walked the property.He said he wants trees elevated.Then i came across codominant stemmed ash about 85 feet tall with some rott at the base had 4 leaders and it is visible it had some rot.I told stump guy needed to come down.Also choke cherry double leader which used to be 4 leaders but much have fallen or was removed with 2 leaders remaining also rotted.Also another cherry single stem with good lean with rot at the base.Im a certified arborist year now.Seemed ok with the stump guy what i was saying.Well when the lawyer returned from vaca he was happy with 4 trees i elevated but was upset with 3 trees i took down.He told me i should have called him about taking them down but when i spoke with stump guy he did not object to me taking it down.These trees that came down are hazards and their are targets nearby vehicle path way wires.When i spoke to the lawyer a week later i listened to what he had to say.He told me landcaper and certified tree guys had said the trees are ok i said no way.Any way we started to have heated argument.I told him i was not told i could not take them down when i spoke to the stump guy.Lawyer also has a cherry near play ground and splits and half broken off from one side the tree is in decline and should come down.He says its a beautifiul tree and he does not want it down.I would not let my child play under a tree that can potentially injure some one.I felt like this guy was trying to say nothing was wrong with these trees and i know that there is most definitely some thing wrong hazardous.He got so mad he said he would cut me a check for what he thought he should pay.After some talking we both calmed down.What are my legal options if this guy does not want to pay me for my 2 days? Before he even came back from vaca i told the stump guy i would throw in 2 trees trim if he was not happy to appease.Im not going to accept nothing less then the 2 days.Its miscommunication maybe on all our parts i dont want to blame the stump guy.I did what i thought was right trimmed 4 trees are were healthy and took down trees that had rot at base.Thanks for your input

 

[VL07]

Is your stump guy licensed? Is he a legal contractor? If not, then the home owner will have a hard time sueing him, but not you. Did you have a contract signed? If not, then you are in trouble. The home owner is going to take his time finding legal reason to sue you, but when he finds all he needs, BAM! Do you have proof that the trees where hazardous, (potos, evaluation, ect)? If not then the home owner will probably get some new trees from you...or cash.

I had a simular case where the landscaper hired me to remove three palms. I contacted the owner first, then had a contract signed.

Good luck man.

 

[sharkfin12us]

Is your stump guy licensed? Is he a legal contractor? If not, then the home owner will have a hard time sueing him, but not you. Did you have a contract signed? If not, then you are in trouble. The home owner is going to take his time finding legal reason to sue you, but when he finds all he needs, BAM! Do you have proof that the trees where hazardous, (potos, evaluation, ect)? If not then the home owner will probably get some new trees from you...or cash.

I had a simular case where the landscaper hired me to remove three palms. I contacted the owner first, then had a contract signed.

Good luck man.

Yes i did take pictures and the stumps are still there.Hes the type of guy that loves his trees even if they are hazardous.Yes wake up call every so often.Also when its a lawyers i think most lawyers think they know every thing.

 

[ATH]

First....Just a clarification: Are you are asking a bunch of tree guys how to do legal battle with a lawyer??? (I know...there are plenty of tree guys that know tree law better than lawyers. But you are asking about business law as much as tree law).

Your question: what are my legal options if this guy does not want to pay me for my 2 days?
A: Statute of Frauds in most States says that a contract is not enforceable unless it is written for certain specific situations. One of those situations is "Goods & Services over $500". Translation: You have no options.

Your statement: miscommunication maybe on all our parts i dont want to blame the stump guy
My reply: Why not? He clearly thinks he has more influence over this guy's affairs than he really has - now you are on the short end of the stick as a result of his arrogance. Has he gone to bat for you yet to reinforce that you did the right thing?

My thoughts: Drop the legal question, and start asking business management questions. You aren't going to win a legal battle (not because he is a lawyer, but because you don't have a written contract). Even if you did win, you probably loose. If I remember the #s right:
*1 happy customer will share you name with 5 people
*1 unhappy customber will share you name with 12 people
*Almost no unhappy customers will tell you they are unhappy
*90% of unhappy customers could be turned into happy customers with relatively little work. (I don't think that includes sueing them...).

How do you make him happy? I don't know the guy, but here is are some ideas:
*First: Appologize.
2nd: Are you well qualified to do hazard tree assessments? If so, find a polite way to communicate that. Show the criteria that you used (don't say anything that will be understood as "look at this-it proves you are wrong"). Then explain why you think the others might have missed it.
3rd: Offer to eat the cost of the removals. I know it is a lot. Try this: "There was a significant understanding here. Stumpy told me that he had authority/permission to make these decisions for you, and I have learned to trust him over the years. I understand now that you are passionate about your trees and you would like to have direct input regarding their removal. While I stand by the need to remove them (as demonstrated earlier), I wish I could have shown you while they were still standing why they presented a eminent threat."
4th: Send a letter explaining why the remaining tree is hazardous and needs to be removed. cc Stumpy on that letter. Once he has been notified by somebody well-qualified to do a hazard tree assessment, he is on the hook if it fails. He should realize that.

Good luck!

 

[MonkeyMan_812]

Yeah man without a written contract you cant do anything. Mabey go to court but in the situation you described, you probably wont win. Visit www.nebs.com and get yourself some written contract forms. Best $100 you'll ever spend.

 

[treemandan]

My advice? its just so simple. Don't work for lawyers.

Seriously though:

What world do you live in where you think you could possibly remove a tree on someone's property without ever talking to the guy who owns the property? Trimming is scary enough.

I don't mean to be an ass but don't do that again. A part of our job is making sure the HO knows what is up. How would you feel if this happened to you? How would you feel if you were a lawyer and this happened to you?

 

[yooper]

yep, your bad, cant beleave you took someones trees down or trimmed without there knowledge or a signed contract from the "stump man"! gunna be a big bullet in your pocket cuz he doesn't have to spend on a lawyer. good luck!

 

[sharkfin12us]

First....Just a clarification: Are you are asking a bunch of tree guys how to do legal battle with a lawyer??? (I know...there are plenty of tree guys that know tree law better than lawyers. But you are asking about business law as much as tree law).

Your question: what are my legal options if this guy does not want to pay me for my 2 days?
A: Statute of Frauds in most States says that a contract is not enforceable unless it is written for certain specific situations. One of those situations is "Goods & Services over $500". Translation: You have no options.

Your statement: miscommunication maybe on all our parts i dont want to blame the stump guy
My reply: Why not? He clearly thinks he has more influence over this guy's affairs than he really has - now you are on the short end of the stick as a result of his arrogance. Has he gone to bat for you yet to reinforce that you did the right thing?

My thoughts: Drop the legal question, and start asking business management questions. You aren't going to win a legal battle (not because he is a lawyer, but because you don't have a written contract). Even if you did win, you probably loose. If I remember the #s right:
*1 happy customer will share you name with 5 people
*1 unhappy customber will share you name with 12 people
*Almost no unhappy customers will tell you they are unhappy
*90% of unhappy customers could be turned into happy customers with relatively little work. (I don't think that includes sueing them...).

How do you make him happy? I don't know the guy, but here is are some ideas:
*First: Appologize.
2nd: Are you well qualified to do hazard tree assessments? If so, find a polite way to communicate that. Show the criteria that you used (don't say anything that will be understood as "look at this-it proves you are wrong"). Then explain why you think the others might have missed it.
3rd: Offer to eat the cost of the removals. I know it is a lot. Try this: "There was a significant understanding here. Stumpy told me that he had authority/permission to make these decisions for you, and I have learned to trust him over the years. I understand now that you are passionate about your trees and you would like to have direct input regarding their removal. While I stand by the need to remove them (as demonstrated earlier), I wish I could have shown you while they were still standing why they presented a eminent threat."
4th: Send a letter explaining why the remaining tree is hazardous and needs to be removed. cc Stumpy on that letter. Once he has been notified by somebody well-qualified to do a hazard tree assessment, he is on the hook if it fails. He should realize that.

Good luck!

thanks for your advice sounds reasonable.Update.I offered to timm 4 small trees and the lawyer has calmed down.I usually always speak to the owner.Big lesson ALWAYS speak to the owner or wait till they come back from vacation.I will go trimm the trees today saturday and get paid.Thanks every one for your input.

 

[sharkfin12us]

My advice? its just so simple. Don't work for lawyers.

Seriously though:

What world do you live in where you think you could possibly remove a tree on someone's property without ever talking to the guy who owns the property? Trimming is scary enough.

I don't mean to be an ass but don't do that again. A part of our job is making sure the HO knows what is up. How would you feel if this happened to you? How would you feel if you were a lawyer and this happened to you?

Thats funny dont work for lawyers.When i hear my potential customer is a lawyer,doctor or certain foreigners i can name 2 but i wont.My pain in the ass alarm goes off.Im not saying all that would be naive.The stump guy told me he spoke to the home owner about me coming for 2 days.I pointed out 3 trees that are obvious hazard with rot.I did not know this guy does not want one tree down even if it is hazardous.Bottom line is i should have been told just elevate no removals.Any i learned my fnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn lesson.I usually always meet with the person.Thanks

 

[tomtrees58]

you did some tree work four free get over it not only will you not win court but he can sue you four removal of the trees:jawdrop: tom trees

 

[Raymond]

I hate dealing with a middle man in the mix. For reasons just like this.
And the other guy to be a lawyer to boot...Yeah good luck

 

[sharkfin12us]

I hate dealing with a middle man in the mix. For reasons just like this.
And the other guy to be a lawyer to boot...Yeah good luck

Well i went there today trimmed four medium trees elevate.He started to ask me about other trees i told him this is hard work and this is what im going to to i was there 3 hours and 1 hour ride from my house.When he went to pay me i wanted to count the money and he made a comment to me are you fnnnnn kidding me.This guy is just looking for an argument.Any way after i counted it i said thank you sir.I dont think counting my money the guy should take it personal.Any way im payed.These people think if you wave money undder our noses we will jump.He was asking for 10% off too.I told him i wil save him on the sales tax now i will have to pay that but im just glad its behind me now.

 

[sharkfin12us]

you did some tree work four free get over it not only will you not win court but he can sue you four removal of the trees:jawdrop: tom trees

Im not crying the blues just wanted some advice.Im over it now i got my money and valuable wake up too thanks

 

[demographic]

I know its a bit late and its already been mentioned but... Don't work for Lawyers.

 

[sharkfin12us]

I know its a bit late and its already been mentioned but... Don't work for Lawyers.

Yes some lawyers not all think they know all.That made me laugh any way be safe get paid and relax after.

 

[VL07]

What make you think it's behind you now? By doing the extra work for free, you've admitted guilt! Now he can go to court and say it was not enough to pay for the damage. That's how it works here in Florida.

 

[sharkfin12us]

What make you think it's behind you now? By doing the extra work for free, you've admitted guilt! Now he can go to court and say it was not enough to pay for the damage. That's how it works here in Florida.

Ill keep you posted.Thanks and thats true well have to see.