Lithium battery lifetime?

[ajc4]

I've found multiple threads discussing the general capability and runtime of several different battery saws but the longevity and resultant long-term cost of replacement batteries doesn't seem to be as well covered. I'd like to gather firsthand experience with this aspect of lithium chemistry chainsaw batteries:

1) What sort of useful life can I expect from these batteries, not in terms of runtime but in terms of how long will a saw battery retain reasonable capacity with relatively infrequent use of a few times per year and how often these still rather expensive batteries will need to be replaced?

2) Are the larger battery saws as good as a quality corded electric in terms of chain speed and torque or does the cord still have a significant advantage?

3) Is there any particular manufacturer or reasonably firewood capable saw model that is either substantially better or worse than the rest with reguard to either tool runtime or battery longevity?

To explain my use in a bit more detail I'll say It's been some time since I've had very intesive chainsaw use. Lately, my chainsaw use is as a suburban firewood scavenger bucking trailer-length logs for firewood and noodling the occasional knotty round in my back yard for at most 2 cord per year. I'm quite acustomed to keeping my gas fresh and saws tuned and running well but I'm looking for a reduced-noise alternative to my gas saws to approach something resembling a more cordial neighbor. I've very nearly decided on a corded electric Makita UC4051A. It won't run like the gas equipment I'm accustomed to, but it seems like the only decent corded electric kit currently available. I'll still have my gas saws "in the field" where noise matters less. However, looking at all of the battery saws on the market leaves me with a shred of doubt over my current choice to stay teathered to the cord. Battery saws greater than 40V do indeed seem to approach corded electric in terms of capability based on evidence I gather on this board and around the internet. However I'm reluctant over the longevity of these high capacity tool batteries that are quite expensive to replace. I don't think I will have enough use of an electric chainsaw to justify the cost of new batteries every few years. I don't currently own any lithium chemistry tools but I come to this judgement is based mostly on experience with older NiCd battery chemistry power tools and lithium chemistry electronic gadgets. Regardless of chemistry or application, rechargeable batteries seem to die out after a few years whether used frequently or not. Am I about correct or are these newer Li chemistry saw batteries substantially better than I'm expecting?

 

[Fatherwheels]

I can’t answer your question, but am interested in battery life too.

Though I can this electric world the powers that be are dangling as a good thing
for the planet turning out to be quite the opposit.

Our current electrical distribution system can bearly manage to cope,
the infrastructure alone simply was not designed to carry enough energy
to charge batteries in the electric vehicles that are being forced on us.
Different countries have different legislation in place ensuring the end of
the combustion engine is just around the corner, so we will be then stuck
with this battery powered world.

The powers that be already know there is simply not even enough material
resources of the kind necessary to build electric vehicles to replace our existing cars
let alone cope with any increase in numbers, so who gets to have one.

I think this battery powered future is going to be very bad for us all, except for those
involved In selling them and the big energy companies will just about own us
as they will have the ability to rob us blind, as there won’t be an alternative.

 

[frank_]

battery power IS the future, powered by renewables
irelands wind turbines generated over 75% the other week and you had to export/dump loads of it
https://www.energydashboard.co.uk/fourtyeight

 

[Franny K]

"1) What sort of useful life can I expect from these batteries, not in terms of runtime but in terms of how long will a saw battery retain reasonable capacity with relatively infrequent use of a few times per year and how often these still rather expensive batteries will need to be replaced? "
The manufacturer claims seem fair, 20% capacity loss per 1000 cycles or something of that nature. The chemistry is changing somewhat the idea is for less cobalt in the mix. Do not store at zero or max for long term. I have a 2014 labeled Husqvarna battery and can not really tell if it has less capacity than the newer one or when new. No corrosion and disposal necessary yet.

"2) Are the larger battery saws as good as a quality corded electric in terms of chain speed and torque or does the cord still have a significant advantage? "
The direct drive (no reduction gearing) 36 nominal 40 volt max have the chain speed of gasoline piston chainsaw or at least in that general area. Do not have the torque. I think the corded electric have less chain speed than gas in most cases.

The plug in choice will be better for continious use. The batteries get hot when used hard. 800 second or 13 minutes in reality not 45 minutes in the literature. and that is moving not even continious.

The Makita xcu03 if you can find it with 4 batteries (takes two to use) and a charger for less than $400 is the best value I know of. It does not blow air through the batteries so is more limited in hot weather. I read on here 1.1 hp probably about right. The double battery circular saw is less power than 15 amps 120v.

 

[Fatherwheels]

battery power IS the future, powered by renewables
irelands wind turbines generated over 75% the other week and you had to export/dump loads of it
https://www.energydashboard.co.uk/fourtyeight

Generating power from wind is great.
Storing it costs money though because batteries are what we use to do so.
None of the above has any bearing on the cabling and investment that will be required
to keep us all running on battery powered vehicles.
Its going to overload what we have just trying.
Just how many KWh of electricity would it take to replace what we use in our vehicles
on a daily basis, it would be colossal. I have no faith in a battery powered future,
when all is counted up to manufacture such vehicles, and service and fuel them,
I would say a better designed lighter cheaper longer lasting combustion engined vehicle
would do less harm to the planet.

 

[Fatherwheels]

Powered by renewables, corn oil, is renewable.
It can be stored in a barrel, no need for very expensive battery technology to do it,
which is the main problem with wind solar and hydro power, they can’t be stored in
any reasonable quantities, let alone quantities large enough to have us all in battery
powered vehicles.

 

[frank_]

local hydrogen is the most promising storage route, using excess electric to produce it (when windy and sunny)
then pump it into the gas network during winter, or back to local electric grid when there is high demand (late afternoon)

 

[Fatherwheels]

local hydrogen is the most promising storage route, using excess electric to produce it (when windy and sunny)
then pump it into the gas network during winter, or back to local electric grid when there is high demand (late afternoon)

Putting our dependencies on battery power is a big mistake.
But that’s only my view.
Even if a smart enough system is designed to manage all the different sources
feeding the electrical grid, we would be then fully dependant on that grid,
that means when it goes wrong, we don’t just run out of light, we also run out
of our means of transport, no one will get this, until it happens, at which
point major problems will arise.

 

[KASH]

My remote cottage has been powered by solar since 1985,I have lived in it rear round two days of sunny solar production in July equals the total production of the month of Dec most years Jan and Feb are not much better.It beats a Coleman lantern but if you can get electricity do it. I also have a small wind turbine minimal production at best.
Kash

 

[OM617YOTA]

My Lowe's/Kobalt 80v mower is going on 5 years old. Also have the chainsaw, blower, and string trimmer. Between all of them I have four batteries and three chargers. Two of the batteries are a bit newer, came as I acquired additional tools, but I have no idea which is which and can't tell any of them apart. I haven't noticed any reduction in capacity, still takes half a battery to mow the yard and more when wet or tall. None of it will make Tim Allen grunt with approval, but for my 1/3rd acre, you couldn't give me gas equipment now.

 

[ajc4]

Thanks FRANNY L and OM617YOTA for your comments on battery longevity. From their experience it seems these newer Li ion chemistry tool batteries are, in fact, significantly better than I had guessed. As FRANNY L points out, the cord has an advantage for my continuous heavy cutting use case of bucking and noodling up a trailer load of logs that I've already brought up to my backyard "landing".

I wasn't expecting so much discussion surrounding engineering and policy solutions for a reduced-carbon future. Even if I do get drug ever further into the battery powered fture I will probably never fully get rid of my gasoline mode of conveyance and mode of wood cutting. Gasoline power will retain significant advantages untill saw and electric car batteries become as cheap as a gas can.

 

[buttercup]

Li-Ion is safer than Li-Poly, it don't burst into flames if it's fully loaded and damaged.
As for longevity it's important how you store them when not in use, as far as I remember they should be stored about 1/2 or 3/4 full or so (not too little and not too much) and not too cold.
The most damaging to these batteries is being emptied completely, they will be permanently damaged. It may happen if you store them through the winter empty as they loose capacity when cold.

 

[gary courtney]

Hitachi 18v. batteries I have are 11 years old and still giving excellent service!

 

[OM617YOTA]

There was a site around saying that these batteries should be stored around 40% state of charge. That's the only site that says that, the manufacturers don't say that, all the other sites saying that reference that one site. Personal experience says it's bologna. I keep my batteries fully charged.

I keep my phone fully charged as much as possible. Sitting here at my desk, it's plugged in because there's a charger here. Overnight in bed, it's plugged in. Gets down to 90% and a charger handy? Plug it in. I easily get 4 years out of a phone battery, while my girlfriend who runs near half charge is lucky to get three years and a buddy who's perpetually at single digit percentages has a near unusable phone after a year. Phones batteries aren't exactly the same as power tool batteries, but the chemistries are similar.

I also keep my Rigid and Milwaukee batteries fully charged. Several years there, no issues and no noticeable capacity reduction.

I keep my batteries fully charged.

 

[peakbagger]

The charge and discharge cycles programmed into the chargers can make a big difference on longevity. If they dont care about longevity, they can set the settings to drain the battery down closer to fully discharged, I have had the Milwaukee M28 volt system for over 10 years. I have replaced two batteries with their newer design. In both cases the batteries just would not take a charge one day. My guess is one of the cells that make up the battery pack died but given that a battery pack is matched cells, its generally not practical to replace just one cell even if I had access to battery spot welder.

When lithium cells are built, they have differing performance, they get graded and mainline manufacturers use the good ones and the rest go out on the secondary market. I have no doubt that those seconds end up in low costs power tools.

 

[Pioneer]

I have a good number of lithium batteries that are 10+ years old and retain 90 percent or better of their rated capacity. As long as they are stored at the proper voltage and not stored with a full charge or completely drained, they will last a long time. This is the reason why the new saw battery packs are sent out with only one out of four "bars" charge, this is the proper way to store them.

 

[OM617YOTA]

Thanks FRANNY L and OM617YOTA for your comments on battery longevity. From their experience it seems these newer Li ion chemistry tool batteries are, in fact, significantly better than I had guessed. As FRANNY L points out, the cord has an advantage for my continuous heavy cutting use case of bucking and noodling up a trailer load of logs that I've already brought up to my backyard "landing".

I wasn't expecting so much discussion surrounding engineering and policy solutions for a reduced-carbon future. Even if I do get drug ever further into the battery powered fture I will probably never fully get rid of my gasoline mode of conveyance and mode of wood cutting. Gasoline power will retain significant advantages untill saw and electric car batteries become as cheap as a gas can.

Welcome!

In your situation I'd go with a corded saw. My battery saw and four batteries are juuuuuuuuuuust enough to buck up my full truck load(little Toyota, though it's been flat beded) of logs into rounds when doing maple, add in the utility trailer or a full size truck and you're going to need a lot of batteries. If you had enough batteries and enough chargers you could make it work, but at that point you're just going from wall outlet to saw and having the batteries involved is dumb. Corded saw costs less, too.

I kept my gas saw, no question. 1.) Battery electric saws are nowhere close to 60cc pro saw power level yet, and 2.) I still need to be able to use my saw in an emergency situation. I live in a small neighborhood out in the sticks, one road in and out. Power taken out by high winds, tree across the road from the same high winds(this has happened), a saw that will function for extended periods without power is vital. Lawnmower? I don't care how tall the grass is.

Even when my daily driver is battery electric, I'll be keeping my diesel truck too.

 

[ajc4]

Thanks for the comments and experience everyone. It seems hard to distinguish folklore from fact in terms of how to store and charge tool batteries. It seems cold temperature and low charge is bad. Beyond that I've herd conflicting advice. I wouldn't worry so much if the batteries weren't so expensive. I anticipate eventually a large aftermarket will emerge and lower those prices. I will probably be a late battery saw adapter only after that happens. Moving on to corded saws ...

The Makita UC4051A arrived. It's nearly perfect for what I want to do. I'm quite impressed with the quality. It has a metal housing (magnesium or aluminum, I'm not sure). I haven't disassembled it but it has a steel clutch drum, rimmed sprocket and there are no external signs of cheesy plastic gears or anything like that common to the cheap models. The 18" 3/8LP 62DL bar from my Stihl 025 fits it though barely, 63DL would be better. This is big enough to noodle the large knotty rounds that the OEM 16" bar isn't quite long enough for. It pulls 18 inches nose deep in dry hard wood with the Stihl PS chisel chain I'm running very well in both crosscut and noodle orientations. It has an overcurrent shutoff protection that's nice to keep me from getting too overzelous. This keeps me from leaning into the cut by habbit of my 60cc saw muscle memory. As long as I don't lean into a bar deep cut too much the overcurrent doesn't trip. I haven't tripped any breakers in the panel, but I think my backyard outlets are 20amps.

This Makita is far better than the Greenworks 20332 18" corded electric saw I returned last week. The brushes on that Greenworks piece of junk lit on fire and crumbled into a dozen pieces on the very first cut I tried. The cut was nearly the full 18" bar length cut but I wasn't leaning on it at all. In any case, the Greenworks didn't survive two minutes in my hands and the Makita worked great pulling big cuts all afternoon in that same pair of hands. Greenworks doesn't list thier chain speed specs but I can tell the Makita is much faster.

One difficulty I found researching electric saws is that few reviews put the tool capability into context relative to gas models that I can relate to. I can comment here for the benefit of future thread lurkers. In terms of pulling torque the UC4051A feels roughly equal to my 025 (using the same bar and chain) and way ahead of Stihl 021's I've used. It's definatley a little slower chain speed. On paper the Makita has 2950 feet/minute chain speed. At a typical 9600rpm speed in the cut the Stihl 025 with my 6 tooth 3/8" LP drive setup should be 3600 feet/minute. That makes the electric Makita saw 20% slower than the Stihl 025. That seems about right by general feel of the saw in the cut. I haven't timed cookie cuts between the two. If I do that might be the subject of another post, but the Makita has similar torque and is 20% slower than my Stihl 025 both by paper specs and general seath-of-the-pants feel in the wood.

 

[Wow]

Generating power from wind is great.
Storing it costs money though because batteries are what we use to do so.
None of the above has any bearing on the cabling and investment that will be required
to keep us all running on battery powered vehicles.
Its going to overload what we have just trying.
Just how many KWh of electricity would it take to replace what we use in our vehicles
on a daily basis, it would be colossal. I have no faith in a battery powered future,
when all is counted up to manufacture such vehicles, and service and fuel them,
I would say a better designed lighter cheaper longer lasting combustion engined vehicle
would do less harm to the planet.

Well,, I think outside the box.. WAY outside the box..Back in 1978 I was in meditation and when I came out I told a Student that I had envisioned a vehicle that had auto pilot and it was driving it's self down the Freeway. The driver, at the time, had rotated his seat and was chatting with his passenger..Cars would merge into the Interstate traffic automatically and the driver could not control his car until it was given back to him remotely..All vehicles traveled at the same speed like a train with train cars. To pass one had to take control of his car and could only do so for a good reason with permission from a remote source..Some years later I imagined a power system completely different than ours today.. It was a signal sent though the air..The signal would act like a charger and a battery UNLIKE any know to man at this time,, would run cars, planes, boat motors, lawn mowers, etc. combustion engines would be a thing of the ancient past..The batteries would be more like some sort of Generator system and last for years..BUT,,, none of this can happen unless humans realize they are half flesh and half unseen energy.. Mind, WIll, Emotions all must be controlled. Man is the enemy of man..War, greed etc, Will keep the human mind from connecting into the higher level of creativity..At this time in history I see humans kinda like Leeches. A mouth full of teeth, sucking blood from other liviing things, passing feces and seeking the things all animals seek. Food, Shelter, Sex, and power over others. Unless man evolves from an animal into a higher being and lives in the creative selfless kind mind with an US rather than a ME way of thinking Man will vanish. All that could have been will never become..Mythology and ignorance rules. Men who try to prove thoughts and beliefs and fight over them trying to convince others they are more correct than them, are immature monkys. The gift of man is the abstract mind.. Yet most of them live in the concrete..When we live to the desires of only the physical and ignore the ability to engage the abstract we live in only half of the circle of our lives. So,, can be make progress to the point we can over come the forces of gravity and make high power lines obsolete? IF we use the power of our minds in the abstract. BUT no man can create a miracle in his flesh. Dream, dream and what you dream about soon becomes your reality..The hands of the Artist creates the concrete which was already created in the eye of the Abstract. Human religion is false. They keep adding to the stories of their heros generation after generation.. Men become Gods who walk on water.. Yet they die like men..Cults are blinding people. Fake media is giving people lies. People who believe these lives now have reasons to believe that they know what they really don't know. My definition of a fool is someone who defends opinion..Opinion and belief are one and the same. My daughter who has her masters degree in Psychology once said, "my father taught me to challenge the boundaries of what we believe we know". We challenged everything..Ha. Ha. ,,,,We STILL do..No one can fight with a man that knows he doesn't know.. I once had lots of answers and few questions..Now I have lots of questions and few answers.. Only time,, will make her report on this experiment called Human..To me,, I don't care..Most of them are like my dog.. Just useless eaters. None of them live long..The good and the bad come and go..I see it like rain..Welcome in the drought, hated in the flood..I'm always at peace. Nothing matters.. We win, we loose, me I die and move to my next level of awareness..already in a state of constant peace, No hell,, no satan, no lake of fire, no worries for me..Because I used my earth dream to become me.. I do hope humans succeeded.. It would be a nice dream come true..BUT I'm not placing bets on it...