Looks like I'm going to need a new 250+kbtu gasification IWB, recommendations?

[Whitbread]

Howdy folks, long story shortened up, I'm 99% sure I have another leak forming in my Empyre Elite 200. Already repaired 2 internal leaks and my confidence is gone in a boiler that's only on it's 3rd heating season. I'm just hoping the small weep stays that way through the rest of this heating season. The boiler is in my metal fab shop so doing the repairs isn't an issue, but I shouldn't have to be. Since ProFab/Empyre is out of business, the 25 year warranty means squat now. Other than the leaks, I love the boiler and it runs very well. I built the shop around the IWB installation so I'm not about to reinvent the wheel with an OWB or large hot water storage tanks.

Here are some details about the setup the boiler heats;
-Shop is only 35'x50', but 34' tall 3 story fully insulated (R19 walls and R30 roof) with heated 6" concrete floor on 1st floor
-House is 4100sqft counting finished basement with 12' ceiling in main living room and LOTS of windows in the house. Was originally heated by forced air 225kbtu natural gas furnace, 18"x20" heat exchanger installed in the plenum
-Sidearm exchanger on 80 gallon hot water tank
- Climate is northern Michigan where it's not uncommon to be single digits or below zero for 30+ days straight. 2 years ago January was below zero the entire month.

My only real complaint against the Empyre was when the temp dropped below zero, the firebox wasn't large enough to make it 8 hours at night with my thermal load. At -30F, 5 hours is max before I didn't have enough coals to relight fresh wood. In the teens and 20's, I can easily go 10-14 hours on a full load.

These are the features I would ideally like in a new IWB;
- Gasification unit
- 15-20cu/ft firebox volume to make it through a cold night
- 250-300Kbtu output
- SS firebox if possible
- 6" flue as that's the chimney size
- converting to a pressurized system isn't a deal breaker at all

I've been doing lots of research and the Wood Gun E250 (E180 I'm feeling will be too small unless anyone has experience otherwise) or the Royall 6300HE custom ordered for indoor installation seem to be the closest fit for my needs. I much prefer the 3/8" SS firebox of the Wood Gun, but the side mount cyclonic separator is going to require some custom piping to place on the rear of the boiler to fit my installation space. Are there any other IWB's that I'm missing that I should take into consideration that fit my installation needs?

Thanks everyone!

 

[Jakers]

Ive heard good things about Garn IWB's. I dont own one but do research the topic quite regularly for knowledge and ideas which route I'll go when the time comes for me to bite the bullet and buy one

http://www.garn.com/

 

[NSMaple1]

As I was reading your thread, Wood Gun popped into my mind before you said it.

I would also consider Econoburn - have you checked those out? Not SS (I don't think), but very solidly built. Both are pressurized.

If you had a more blank sheet, I would also suggest a Garn (open). Or a Switzer (pressurized I think). But those have on-board storage (or maybe more like, they are a storage tank with an on-board boiler) so are very big. Sounds like you have space limitations? All boilers benefit from storage, but might not be possible there? You could put storage tanks in the house - if you had the space for them.

Does your Empyre have return temperature protection? If return water that is entering back into your boiler is less than 140° for much time at all, that will greatly increase condensation in your firebox. Which might be part or most of the reasons for the leak problem - although pretty sure Empyres had other big issues anyway. Sounds like it's too late for that with that one now - but definitely something you want to make sure of with a new one. Seems I remember they didn't, but there was a kit came out later that added it? Empyre was on my short list when I swapped, 6 years ago, just because there was a local place selling them. I didn't go that way - some glad for that now. Good luck, anyway!

 

[Marshy]

Empyre brand closed shop a few years ago. I was looking into them a while ago when I was looking for indoor boilers locally and found some new ones discounted. From what I read they went belly up because of your experience.

I went with Froling boilers and am in the process of hooking it up. Idk if they make one in the size you are looking but I would suggest you look into them. They are some of the best the market has to offer.

That being said, do you have return water protection so it returns to the boiler above 140F?

Edit:

Froling S3 Turbo 50 is the largest cord wood boiler (I believe) and is rated for 166 KBTU/HR with a 7.4 cuft firebox. It is intended to be used in conjunction with a thermal storage. Do you have storage?

250K is a rather large boiler. I'd suggest you look into a custom boiler. I've read good things about Switzer boilers. Google search "Switzer's Custom Woodburning System, Inc.".

 

[Whitbread]

I appreciate the info guys! I'll look into Garn, Scwitzer, and econoburn!

Yes there is return water temp protection on the Empyre. I tried to do everything correct possible with the install and maintenance/upkeep. I suppose I fall into the stereotype of anal engineer tendencies when it comes to anything I work on/build.

Unfortunately, there's no easy/simple way to install any kind of hot water storage without either loosing the all free space in the furnace room in the house or literally putting an insulated tank outside somewhere. I know the misses doesn't want to lose a storage room and keeping 180+ heat in an insulated tank outside when it's -30 would probably not be the best thermodynamic case.

I'll snap some pictures and upload them of the boiler install so you guys can get a better idea, the floorplan in my shop was literally built around it. There is currently a shop sink next between the boiler and pallet rack next to it and the boiler is in a corner. I can't move the sink and I can't move my pallet racks, so any new boiler has to fit in the space available. That's where the side mounted cyclone unit on the Wood Gun kills me. I talked to AHS and they said using flexible SS pipe to relocate it a few feet isn't a problem, but then I still have a hot pipe on the side of the boiler that I walk on to get to my sink. Heat shields can be built, just additional install hassle. My biggest concern with the wood gun actually is how much ash is known to come out of the chimney? I burn about 18-20 full cords per heating season and the ash pan at the bottom of the cyclone unit is quite small vs my current 30 gallon ash can that's next to my boiler now haha.

 

[Marshy]

Adding storage capacity to the system is always a good idea if the floor space exists. You don't have to have pressurized storage. American Solartechnics makes modular, unpressurized thermal storage tanks. They can be custom shapped or standard square tanks. They have a drop-in htx thst can be pressurized to your hydronic system and work to add/remove heat from the storage. It would take some extra controls to make it work but it's straight forward. The storage becomes less of an issue if you are going with the Switzer because I believe they build the storage into the boiler.

 

[Whitbread]

I know storage is a good idea if possible, but in this install the cost and difficulty isn't worth it to me. The Empyre has been heating for 3 seasons now just fine without additional storage and it actually works well makes the boiler fire up once every 2-4 hours when its in the 30/40 range so it doesn't sit and idle until the fire dies out.

I just looked at Switzer's website, they look very solidly built, but those guys are massive and there's no way they will fit within my length I have available .

Here's a picture of where the boiler is, as you can see it's stuck in a corner with loaded pallet racks off either corner and the sink next to it (don't worry, that used automotive coolant in the tote near the boiler, not any kind of fuel). All the in floor manifolds, pumps, and plumbing are mounted to the outside wall. The pallet racks can't move and the sink doesn't have anywhere to move to either as all my wall space is used.

 

[NSMaple1]

Looks like a Wood Gun or Econoburn situation to me. Does your existing system use a heat exchanger? Since the Empyre is open? You might see a bit of performance gain if your whole system is pressurized & HX removed. Maybe. But would likely have to add an expansion tank. Likely a small issue in your grand scheme of things.

I'm a little leery about the height of your thimble though - might just be the perspective of the picture.

Too bad about the way the Empyre thing went. Lots of people got burned there.

 

[Marshy]

Don't discount Switzer until you talk with them. They build custom boilers. If you told them what youy had and how it operated and the space limitation you have they might be able to come up with a perfect solution. Will it be more economical? Idk.

 

[Whitbread]

Looks like a Wood Gun or Econoburn situation to me. Does your existing system use a heat exchanger? Since the Empyre is open? You might see a bit of performance gain if your whole system is pressurized & HX removed. Maybe. But would likely have to add an expansion tank. Likely a small issue in your grand scheme of things.

I'm a little leery about the height of your thimble though - might just be the perspective of the picture.

Too bad about the way the Empyre thing went. Lots of people got burned there.

No, there's no heat exchanger in the system, everything is directly fed. The boiler is the highest point in the system by design so it would mostly self bleeding as an open system (with small air bleeds in a few spots as needed).

Adding an expansion tank and converting to pressure isn't an issue that scares me, all my plumbing is rated for for it already.

The thimble is about ~7.5' off the ground, 6" of concrete below the OSB, and it's right at the top of an 8' sheet. Looking at Econoburns, they have 8" flues and the 300k btu unit only has an 11.4 cu/ft firebox so I'm not really gaining any capacity there. The 500K unit dimensionally will fit and has a 19.5 cu/ft firebox, but it has a 12" flue. I would really prefer not to have to install a new 34' tall insulated chimney on the outside of the shop.

It definitely sucks about Empyre as it is actually a really nice boiler. It burns clean, runs smooth, and definitely puts out over 250Kbtu considering it can keep up with my heat load in -30F. It just needed a larger firebox and some slight design changes to get rid of the cracking problems.

Don't discount Switzer until you talk with them. They build custom boilers. If you told them what youy had and how it operated and the space limitation you have they might be able to come up with a perfect solution. Will it be more economical? Idk.

I suppose it's worth a phone call if nothing else!

 

[panolo]

I don't know jack about IWB but man do people seem to love their Garn's. Good luck in the search!

 

[Whitbread]

I don't know jack about IWB but man do people seem to love their Garn's. Good luck in the search!

The Garn's do look very nice, but at 107-130" long for the 1500 or 2000 model, it wont fit without a wall stretcher. About 70-80" is my hard limit on length before I can't open a door to load it.

 

[NSMaple1]

12" flue? Holy crap. I have to think you should be able to neck that down some? Wonder what they'd say about that?

 

[Jakers]

I would consider building a shed onto the existing building just for the boiler. sky is the limit then...

 

[Whitbread]

12" flue? Holy crap. I have to think you should be able to neck that down some? Wonder what they'd say about that?

That's what I said reading the spec sheet! I'm going to call and ask about necking down to a 6" chimney.

I would consider building a shed onto the existing building just for the boiler. sky is the limit then...

As I said previously, I literally designed the entire shop layout inside and outside around the exact IWB I was planning on using. The shop is built into a steep hill so remotely flat ground within 50' doesn't exist that isn't my woodshed lean-to or 2 parking spaces right in front of the shop. I need all 22 cords of space in the lean-to and I can't lose the 2 parking spaces in front of the shop where there's concrete. If I were to do it all over again, I'd do things differently, but hindsight is always 20/20 right?

 

[Marshy]

That's what I said reading the spec sheet! I'm going to call and ask about necking down to a 6" chimney.

Let us know if they laugh out loud over the phone when you ask lol.

 

[NSMaple1]

Ya pretty sure 6" won't fly. Mine is rated 140,000. It has an 8" connector. I reduced it to 7" pretty well right away. I was thinking MAYBE 8". Which is still a long way from 12" though.

 

[blakey]

How is the natural gas price in your area? I am always surprised when people choose an iwb or owb over natural gas. (And I am a happy owb owner) Around here it's a no brainer, I wish I had access to it.

 

[NSMaple1]

Have you looked at Heatmaster? G200?

 

[Whitbread]

Let us know if they laugh out loud over the phone when you ask lol.

I agree, reducing down to 6" sounds silly, but $476 per 36" of 12" SS insulated pipe is equally silly and I can't justify tearing down a perfect $2k chimney to replace with a $6k chimney.

Ya pretty sure 6" won't fly. Mine is rated 140,000. It has an 8" connector. I reduced it to 7" pretty well right away. I was thinking MAYBE 8". Which is still a long way from 12" though.

My 250Kbtu Empyre only has a 6" flue and it's never had a breathing problem. If the flue gasses are cool enough from an efficient heat exchange, then the volume of said gasses is smaller and a smaller diameter pipe can be used. I'm willing to bet more than a few manufacturers build on the caution side and upsize if the flow numbers are even remotely close to flow threshold for a given pipe size.

How is the natural gas price in your area? I am always surprised when people choose an iwb or owb over natural gas. (And I am a happy owb owner) Around here it's a no brainer, I wish I had access to it.

I have natural gas and it is the backup for the house forced air furnace. However, to keep the house at 62 degrees 4 years ago in february cost me $394 before my shop was built. If I kept the house at 68 and my shop at 65, I would be easily pushing $1000/month in natural gas dec-feb. I will happily feed a boiler for that price.

Have you looked at Heatmaster? G200?

I just did and the footprint will fit and the G200 has a 6" flue. It's also only rated for 210kbtu, but has a 195 gallon storage built in compared to my current 145 gallons. I will have to do some more research on this guy as the specs sound very promising as it actually has a UL listing for indoor installation (which would make my insurance company happy). It will look a little funny inside, but I have stranger things in my shop anyway haha. Thank you for the tip!