Mod New Saw for E10? Really? (was two 310's blown up in a month)

[PogoInTheWoods]

This is a thread re-direct that should be self-explanatory for those at all interested. Sorta needed its own heading for further discussion, imho.

It started out as a coupla blown up 310's and quickly evolved into a different discussion -- probably deserving of its own treatment since it would seem to apply to any recently manufactured products subject to the latest EPA regs, and the warranty coverage of those products (or lack thereof) if corrective measures are taken by the customer to keep from destroying his purchase under the new EPA rules -- with particular respect to using E10 based fuel mix.

So bring the experiences, dealer responses to your brand new blown up 310's because of ethanol based fuel mixes, corrective measures you have used to avert automatic disaster with your new saw, yada, yada.

I've encapsulated the basic essence of the E10 aspect of the previous thread for general review consumption for anyone else wanting to contribute.

I have a customer who has destroyed 2 310's. The piston and cyl.

are scored on the ex. side on both saws. I know this guy, and how he takes care of his

equipment, and it most likley isnt him. Same gas has been used in 2 other saws...90+

octane, minimal alcohol. Pressure and vac. tested, tight as a drum. No obstructions in

the muffler and fuel line, filter and carb is in good shape. One of the 310's was 15

months old and the other is about a month. He has been running Stihl oil, and when I

checked there was nothing but premix in the fuel tanks. I'm scratching my head, any

thoughts would be appreciated.
Jim

We're scratching ours, too.

Were the limiter caps removed, and saws tuned in

properly?

Woulda killed the warranty on the month old saw.

EPA blues. These are good saws that Stihl has had to

gradually strangle for EPA purposes.

So what are these EPA purposes?

Sounds like E10 gasoline. I have a 290 that had been running OK,

not great but OK since 2003. E10 was pushed in our area earlier this year and there were

a number of saws, including mine, that have the same problems as the ones you described.

The condition of my saw was the same as you described - no problems except for the

scoured cylinder.

Now, mine is running great after a new engine thanks to Fish. Tabs are gone off the caps

and it runs like it should, idles at 2,000 and 13,500 WOT (4 cycling and the ring not

seated). I did not have to change anything else on the engine except for the muffler.

Opening up the muffler makes a big difference in the amount of cylinder heat - which is

worse when you go to E10 gas. I did change the brand of oil and amount I use after

taking the engine apart and seeing how it is made, but that is another story - not

getting into one of those "oil war" threads...

A combination of the E10, with the "factory" settings and EPA muffler will fry a

290/310/390 that was already set on borderline lean (on a cool day) - which is what the

EPA mandated factory settings are (14.7:1 is "factory" fuel/air ratio and E10 changes

those settings to 15.2:1-15.3:1 with the extra oxygen in the alcohol).

So what mix works best (for you) with a modded saw running an E10 based fuel -- and why in your opinion?

Fog

I'm very interested in the source(s) of your data with

particular respect to the Stihl series in question relative to the ambient temperature

affect on borderline lean settings per mandatory EPA factory settings.

Poge

Pogo,
The fuel/air ratio numbers came from the EPA website under reformulated gasoline. These

are the numbers that Stihl, Husky and all the other manufacturers have to shoot for -

and the reason for the limiting tabs.

Fuel air ratios have always been at a specific temp and altitude - 70 degrees and sea

level. You can find that in any decent engine tuning book or book on making horsepower.

One of mine is "the Two Stroke Tuners Handbook". There are also a number of books on

drag racing engines that have information about air density, temp, and altitude. Those

are idealistic conditions where you make horse power, also why gas mileage is better at

night in Texas. When the air gets "warm" the settings change and so does the needle

settings. If it is set where it should be, a change in air will not really affect a

chainsaw enough to go lean. If a chainsaw has the EPA settings, then warm air will

definitely affect the engine. Add E10 and you need mine shaft weather.

A high performance two cycle will be affected by any weather changes. At a race I have

to adjust the needle on my engine each run through out the day as the weather changes.

Those engines are on the ragged edge and we notice any change in weather. There are also

those days that the weather sucks and you just can't make as much power. Which is why I

would never set a chainsaw with a tach to factory rpms- could be a bad air day and you

would fry the engine trying to hit 14,000 when the best it can get is 13,500. We carry a

"weather station" and know what the conditions are and if the air is bad, then you just

live with it - everybody is running the same air. But, even with the engine dialed on

kill every run, we never run them as lean as the numbers the EPA mandates for everyday

usage on chainsaws.

Fog

Then why do manufacturers build and tune em to blow up?

This is probably true. It does not sound like the

paragon of saw knowledge and experience was running these 310s. I sure didn't mean to

knock the 290/310/390, I actually think they are very good saws and have held up

incredibly well for a homeonwer-type saw.. heck for ANY saw! But I do think the fact

remains that, tuned as they are today coming out of the factory, they simply don't run

like their older brothers and sisters. If you go run a brand new 290 against an older

one I think you will see what I mean. Compare the outlets in the muffler (for instance)

and you'll find that they just don't breathe as well. The slightly modded 290/310/390

is a strong running. robust saw. The new ones are anemic in comparison. The good news

is that with a little fiddling, you can have a new one that runs like an older

one.

I'd say most would agree that the elders will run better for all the obvious reasons. But manufacturers building younger siblings destined to blow up given today's extremes in fuel quality just doesn't make sense to me.

Ok, I have a year old MS390 that I've done nothing to "mod"

wise because I'm happy w/ it. Some of you actually contend that I'm risking damage to

my 390 by NOT "modding" it because of the way the EPA knobgobblers have regulated the

tunings? Wtf? I never use the ethanol gas.

Precisely. W - T - F? I'm taking it more as an assertion, basically understand it, don't necessarily disagree, but.....,

Poge,
I guess I should have said that those numbers apply to any engine (2 cycle or 4 cycle),

but the thread was about the 310 and I was thinking about the 290/310/390 series. I got

a bit po'ed when my saw died and started doing some reading about the EPA "stuff" and

found that info. My background causes me to do research on various technical topics. And

racing for over 30 years leads you down a lot of paths on engines, carbs, exhaust, and

fuel/oil. Sometimes you forget that not everyone does those things.

Before I ever ran my new 361, I dumped the gas that the dealer had put in it and

replaced the caps with some X-Acto brand and set the carb. I use a whole different fuel

mix than they do and don't care for the EPA settings. I checked the settings before I

changed them and my new saw would have been dead in no time. With E10 being the law of

the land, they really need to change the factory settings or see a lot more dead saws.

In talking to a number of dealers in the Houston area, there are already a number of

dead saws from the E10 in our area.

My saw problems have not been in vein though, my 290 is now better than it was new and

makes more power than a stock 390. I am even looking around for a 390 cylinder assembly

to see what I can get out of the saw. My racing partner an I have been having fun with

these little engines and I keep telling him I need a chrome liner for it - we'll see.

Fog

Hope you don't think I'm pickin' on you, Fog. Quite the contrary. I'm intrigued by your take on all of this and just want to learn more and hopefully acquire additional substantiation-- and mebbe use your approach to turn my 039 into a 660!!!

Any new takers on clarifying the subject for the masses?

Poge

 

[GASoline71]

All brand new saws should be modded... period.

get with the times... all the cool kids are doin' it.











Gary

 

[Fog1965]

Poge,
No problem, I look at things a bit different than most. As I stated my new 361 had about 30 seconds run time with the factory settings and dealer fuel. Before I ever ran it, I changed the caps and settings -along with the fuel mix. From reading other people's problems and experiences concerning warranty issues, I figured I was on my own when I walked out the door. I had even asked if they had to run it, I didn't even want it fired up - but it is a Stihl policy that they start every saw.

My background is also a bit different, having spend over 30 years racing two strokes. From my other posts, you will note that you get over the fear of adjusting the carb real quick - it is a way of life. I went through the deal of having "my dealer(s)" adjust the carb just to keep it under warranty. All I got was screwed on that deal and it cost me a saw - especially after I saw a post where someone else had a MS290 get nuked in less than 30 days and was told he didn't mix the fuel right - using their oil and directions. Since I have no intention of running their 50:1 oils and EPA settings, I would probably be told the same thing. I look at the warranty issue the same as the ones I got on my race engines - if it blew up on the first run "for x amount of dollars they will build me another one just like it". If its a manufacturing defect, then Stihl is still l on the hook for that - but as far as it running lean, that's my problem.

From talking to a number of dealers, I would never let them work on my saws now. One mental giant told me that one of the reasons they were seeing a lot of scoured cylinders was they were over revving the saws. I just had to walk away from that one. With the right settings and fuel, my saw would run 13,500 all day long - literally. That poor cretin was grossly ignorant of two cycle engines - I should have asked him if he had a license to use a wrench and if he was allowed to work on anything other than Nerf-engines.

As to the "why are manufactures build saws that blow up". Its a $37,500 fine per saw that they don't set to the EPA mandated settings. That's on the EPA web site. Stihl, Husky, Poulan and the rest don't want to put them out that way, but that amount of money adds up quick. That is why you have EPA mandated limiting caps, muffler and bar oil settings. They can even be fined for telling you about changing the settings and that's why some dealers won't sell limiting caps and removal tools. And it extends to the end user, who is subject to a "civil suit and fine" for altering any of those mandated settings (also from the EPA site). So everybody that has popped the limiting caps and/or modded a muffler on a Stihl MS series is subject to a $3,750 (that was the number I was told) fine from the EPA - who is probably monitoring this forum trolling for fine candidates.

The way I look at it, I paid for my saws, I pay for the maintenance, I pay for the fuel and oil - so I will run them the way an engine should and not the way some mental giant that can't even change oil in the car says I should. When the EPA sends me an EPA credit card that will pay for a new saw every time I nuke one, I'll run it with their settings - I won't care if it gets fried every log I cut, send me a case of saws then I wouldn't have to change chains - they gotta be Stihls, no Poulans and make them MS880s with a four foot bar (don't care if its 12" logs with the EPA paying for it), if the EPA is paying for them might was well burn up a $2,000 saw. ... But, until I get the credit card, its just another day at the races - "run what ya brung, and hope ya brung enough"...

Fog
"Gasoline is for washing parts, alcohol is for drinking, and Nitro is for racing"

 

[Justsaws]

It is not the fuel.

It is the fool running the saw. It might be the fool selling the saw but since Lowe's and TSC sell lots of Husqvarna/Poulans and Home Depot sells lots of Echos I would be willing to bet that it is the fool running the saws.

Stop allowing people a scapegoat for their owns inadequacies. It is not the governments fault that some people cannot purchase, contain and consume gasoline without damaging one of the simplest engine designs out there.

 

[GASoline71]

LMAO... 50:1 ain't got nothin' to do with EPA... the new oils just lubricate better. I run 40 year old saws on Stihl Ultra full synthetic @ 50:1... no problems whatsoever. I have run those old saws hard on that mix ratio.

If someone keeps smoke checkin' saws over and over... then it is the user... not the equipment. Period.

Gary

 

[GASoline71]

It is not the fuel.

HAHA! You beat me by a minute.

Gary

 

[nmurph]

LMAO... 50:1 ain't got nothin' to do with EPA... the new oils just lubricate better. I run 40 year old saws on Stihl Ultra full synthetic @ 50:1... no problems whatsoever. I have run those old saws hard on that mix ratio.

If someone keeps smoke checkin' saws over and over... then it is the user... not the equipment. Period.

Gary

yes!! And, can i be shown this information regarding EPA fines and owners being subject to fines for removal of limiters. first it was the 5100's and now it will be the 1127's. i don't find CS mechanics to be the next group of undiscovered Einsteins. i have met many, and frankly, most don't impress me. there are several on here are that are very sharp and only a class or two short of a astro-physicist doctorate. but they are the exception as is most everything and everyone on AS.

 

[Taxmantoo]

Aren't all the Virginia Beach Stihl saws tuned to run right on E10, near sea level, from the factory?

How often, if ever, does the MS310 owner dump his old fuel?
I try to turn mine over every 30 days, and ir definitely ends up in a car or lawn mower within 60 days.
Also, how often does his gas retailer get new fuel? Some of then have slow turnover on premium.

 

[blsnelling]

I believe it was Lakeside that said Stihl saws made in Virginia are tuned with E10 fuel. Reguardless, E10 fuel will NOT cause a saw to burn up. It's a matter of tuning. The saw will run a little leaner on E10, so has to be tuned accordingly. Running 50:1 oil has nothing to do with it either. That's all the saw needs. Sounds like a simple matter of running saws not properly tuned to me.

 

[PogoInTheWoods]

I believe it was Lakeside that said Stihl saws made in Virginia are tuned with E10 fuel. Reguardless, E10 fuel will NOT cause a saw to burn up. It's a matter of tuning. The saw will run a little leaner on E10, so has to be tuned accordingly. Running 50:1 oil has nothing to do with it either. That's all the saw needs. Sounds like a simple matter of running saws not properly tuned to me.

It seems as though the assertion was that proper tuning for E10 was not possible without pulling the caps, hence voiding the warranty on a new saw.
Most pros would probably do it because they know what they're doing, but Joe Homeowner isn't going there, nor should he NEED to imho.

So maybe the distinction should be made between Fog's observations and yours (and I don't mean to be splitting hairs) is that there is a difference between "proper tuning" under E10 conditions and "adequate tuning" under the same conditions, the latter of course, meaning a vastly under performing saw outta the box from the factory, but not necessarily one that will auto-destruct due to EPA mandated specs -- and the former meaning a vastly superior performing saw, but one that would no longer have a warranty (obviously) when so modified out of the box.

Fair enough, or is there more to this that I'm still missing that others may want to chime in on?

Poge

 

[blsnelling]

Someone will have to clarify, but I don't believe there's a problem with a dealer resetting the limiter caps so that the saw can be tuned to factory specs. That doesn't mean eliminating them. That is not modding a saw. It is the responsibility of the dealer to make sure the saw is properly tuned before selling.

 

[PogoInTheWoods]

Someone will have to clarify, but I don't believe there's a problem with a dealer resetting the limiter caps so that the saw can be tuned to factory specs. That doesn't mean eliminating them. That is not modding a saw. It is the responsibility of the dealer to make sure the saw is properly tuned before selling.

Still awaiting clarification on dealers resetting limiter caps on factory saws so they can be set to factory specs. Any dealers wanna chime in on how often ya do that?

The initial assertion was that removing the tabs, replacing with X-Acto Brand, and opening up the muffler for "proper tuning" of the saw for an E10 environment was necessary to keep from experiencing the condition depicted in the original thread.

I'd call that modding. So would a dealer.

Poge

 

[blsnelling]

You're making far more of this that what it is. You do not have to mod the muffler to properly tune the saw. It won't have as much power as it would, but it won't burn up either. You don't have to trim the limiters either. They need removed and reinstalled in a position where it can be tuned.

 

[indiansprings]

The common denominator on the two fried 310's is the operator. If it's such a pos why aren't the pages of AS littered with the stories of the failures. It's little brother, same design the 290, is their number one selling saw. Why, because it's reliable, not the most stellar performer by any means. I'd be willing to bet that if you give me a 310 set up by my dealer or myself without messing with the tabs, Stihl Ultra and using E10, 87,88, up to 100 octane I can get years of use out of the saw. But I'm just a farmer, thank goodness all my Stihls have survived my tuning.lol
Not to cause a stink, but I think most of the I fried a saw threads blaming the mfgs, regardless of brand, are missing all the fine details, not by design necessecarily, but I'm in and out of two dealers all the time, have been for years and just don't see many fried saws. Of the few I've observed all but one have been operator error. Do saws come from the factory lean these days, sure, but any dealer worth a damn, gets them set up right before they go out the door. It's the owner's responsibility to either learn how to tune and take care of his equipment or take it in to the dealer periodically to make sure it is running right. There are just too many people today that can't take responsibility for their actions, **** happens to everyone.

 

[twiztedsix]

Well for what it is worth, Echo will pay the dealer to pull the limiter caps and re-tune any of their products within the first 30 days of purchase.