MS461 Cylinder - Farmertec vs OEM (Photos)

[Axotopia]

Just wanted to share some photos of the Farmertec MS461 Cylinder I received today. Planning to learn how to port, so bought the AM parts to practice on for $19 shipped instead of OEM for $226 on EB.

The Farmertec casting looks much more refined than OEM, but he machining is quite lackluster. As a repair/replacement AM part, the Farmertec needs some cleanup work done before being put into action. All the Farmertec port openings looks smaller than OEM. Squish band is also not that pretty.

Interesting finding is that OEM wrist pin is too long for the Farmertec piston. Also, although the Farmertec piston is lighter, the wrist pin is much heavier. Installed, OEM is a 3+grams lighter.

 

[cuinrearview]

I disagree that the casting is more refined. Look at the lower transfer, and the parting lines on the fins above the intake. And besides that, and the inferior machining, you still have a question of the material itself. How porous is the aluminum? How pure? I'm no metallurgist, so I don't know what effects changes in the alloy would bring to the table, but we have a track record with OEM.

All of that said, i think your plan is a solid one. See how much you can get out of the junk $20 jug. Enjoy the project!

 

[morbius18]

I have noticed all the ones I get dont seem to have the spark plug base machined to the right depth. Yours is the same way. Screw a plug into both and look from the cylinder side. That alone drops the compression quite a bit. I've been brainstorming how to correct that.
Look at the plug threads on this 441bb vs an oem one:

 

[user 122190]

Good looking jug. $19 vs $226, Wow! Are you going to open the ports or just polish? No doubt the OEM looks better inside. It has warn itself to a snug and polished working component. IMO, a lot can be learned in slipping the old piston and ring into the new jug. It should glide smoothly throughout the travel. If there are any hangups then some honing or filing at the port edges can take care of any machining gotchas.

 

[Axotopia]

I have noticed all the ones I get dont seem to have the spark plug base machined to the right depth. Yours is the same way. Screw a plug into both and look from the cylinder side. That alone drops the compression quite a bit. I've been brainstorming how to correct that.
Look at the plug threads on this 441bb vs an oem one:

Wonder if there is a pop up piston for the 441 to increase the compression. Hyway has it for the 461 which I may get just for fun. Not impressed with the Farmertec machining, but in reality, I had to clean up the OEM as well.

Good looking jug. $19 vs $226, Wow! Are you going to open the ports or just polish? No doubt the OEM looks better inside. It has warn itself to a snug and polished working component. IMO, a lot can be learned in slipping the old piston and ring into the new jug. It should glide smoothly throughout the travel. If there are any hangups then some honing or filing at the port edges can take care of any machining gotchas.

Bill, thank for the tip on using the old piston. The port openings needs to get cleaned up, the squish band also needs some cleaning. As it is, the cylinder base and squish band need to even out, I can take out .005" so that it matches the squish on my OEM, which is .020" with a gasket delete. The cylinder needs work for sure. Waiting on my right angle head for my rotary tool to start having some fun.

I disagree that the casting is more refined. Look at the lower transfer, and the parting lines on the fins above the intake. And besides that, and the inferior machining, you still have a question of the material itself. How porous is the aluminum? How pure? I'm no metallurgist, so I don't know what effects changes in the alloy would bring to the table, but we have a track record with OEM.
All of that said, i think your plan is a solid one. See how much you can get out of the junk $20 jug. Enjoy the project!

You are right, would be interesting to see if a ridiculously low price AM cylinder can be made to perform as well as (or better than) a stock OEM. Guest my disappointment with Stihl now that I am thinking about it, is that if a $19 cylinder+piston can achieve a very clean and even casting, Stihl really needs to up their game with their casting supplier to do better.

 

[cuinrearview]

Wonder if there is a pop up piston for the 441 to increase the compression. Hyway has it for the 461 which I may get just for fun. Not impressed with the Farmertec machining, but in reality, I had to clean up the OEM as well.


Bill, thank for the tip on using the old piston. The port openings needs to get cleaned up, the squish band also needs some cleaning. As it is, the cylinder base and squish band need to even out, I can take out .005" so that it matches the squish on my OEM, which is .020" with a gasket delete. The cylinder needs work for sure. Waiting on my right angle head for my rotary tool to start having some fun.


You are right, would be interesting to see if a ridiculously low price AM cylinder can be made to perform as well as (or better than) a stock OEM. Guest my disappointment with Stihl now that I am thinking about it, is that if a $19 cylinder+piston can achieve a very clean and even casting, Stihl really needs to up their game with their casting supplier to do better.

That FT cylinder looks nasty

 

[user 122190]

Bill, thank for the tip on using the old piston. The port openings needs to get cleaned up, the squish band also needs some cleaning. As it is, the cylinder base and squish band need to even out, I can take out .005" so that it matches the squish on my OEM, which is .020" with a gasket delete. The cylinder needs work for sure. Waiting on my right angle head for my rotary tool to start having some fun.

I'm interested in seeing how the porting comes along. The internal transfer ports look difficult to make much headway. IMO, that jug looks fine. It is for you to decide its value as a working replacement. I don't get how Stihl can charge such extravagant cost. When I was an officer in my condo homeowners association, and solicited bids for repairs, the high bids were usually tossed. I figured if they are asking that much they really don't want the work. Maybe Stihl is all about selling saws, and not creating an encouraging paths to rebuilds.

 

[Trent Curtis]

I'm interested in seeing how the porting comes along. The internal transfer ports look difficult to make much headway. IMO, that jug looks fine. It is for you to decide its value as a working replacement. I don't get how Stihl can charge such extravagant cost. When I was an officer in my condo homeowners association, and solicited bids for repairs, the high bids were usually tossed. I figured if they are asking that much they really don't want the work. Maybe Stihl is all about selling saws, and not creating an encouraging paths to rebuilds.

I’ve yet to find away around one of the most basic LAWS of life...... “you get what you pay for”

OEM cylinders can take a lot of abuse. To the point, several pistons will wear out and the cylinder be reused over and over.

Until we see the cheap stuff prove a similar track record, I’ll continue to shell out my hard earned $.

But for the purpose of the OP- sounds like a sound plan

 

[user 122190]

Now I get it. Stihl has a unique market that they focus on. When you are asking up to and over 10* the competitor prices, you don't have to worry about market domination. A few sales keeps the lights on and the paychecks get written.

I’ve yet to find away around one of the most basic LAWS of life...... “you get what you pay for”

OEM cylinders can take a lot of abuse. To the point, several pistons will wear out and the cylinder be reused over and over.

Until we see the cheap stuff prove a similar track record, I’ll continue to shell out my hard earned $.

But for the purpose of the OP- sounds like a sound plan

 

[Trent Curtis]

Now I get it. Stihl has a unique market that they focus on. When you are asking up to and over 10* the competitor prices, you don't have to worry about market domination. A few sales keeps the lights on and the paychecks get written.

Not sure I understand your post- unless that comment about a “unique market” was a very passive attempt in referring to all the idiots who would pay such prices?

 

[user 122190]

Just you.

Not sure I understand your post- unless that comment about a “unique market” was a very passive attempt in referring to all the idiots who would pay such prices?

 

[Trent Curtis]

Just you.

Wow...... rough day?

I don’t recall being rude, you clearly feel very strongly about AM cylinders and I’m sorry that your senses were so offended.

I’ll leave you to it- apparently your opinions were beyond discussion.

 

[user 122190]

Ok.

Wow...... rough day?

I don’t recall being rude, you clearly feel very strongly about AM cylinders and I’m sorry that your senses were so offended.

I’ll leave you to it- apparently your opinions were beyond discussion.

 

[Trent Curtis]

Just wanted to share some photos of the Farmertec MS461 Cylinder I received today. Planning to learn how to port, so bought the AM parts to practice on for $19 shipped instead of OEM for $226 on EB.

The Farmertec casting looks much more refined than OEM, but he machining is quite lackluster. As a repair/replacement AM part, the Farmertec needs some cleanup work done before being put into action. All the Farmertec port openings looks smaller than OEM. Squish band is also not that pretty.

Interesting finding is that OEM wrist pin is too long for the Farmertec piston. Also, although the Farmertec piston is lighter, the wrist pin is much heavier. Installed, OEM is a 3+grams lighter.

OP- I’m sorry for detailing your thread. Keep us in the loop on this porting process. Pics required!

 

[Axotopia]

Sorry everybody if this thread stirs up some very sensitive issues of AM vs OEM. My purpose was just to show what an AM cylinder and piston looks like to help others who may be thinking about AM parts, either messing around with porting (like myself) or as replacement parts. Definitely there is a place for everyone who is passionate and the parts are all aimed at different markets segments.

OEM is great if you have a business and could use it as a tax write off or depreciate it. Also, if certainty of general quality and performance is a priority, OEM is a safer bet. More importantly, it does not hurt if you are voting with your money to support OEM parts. Stihl employs a lot of people in the US like the assembly plants workers, marketing folks, distribution channels and local dealers. The higher OEM cost may not directly equate to quality, but it does support a very important social structure that is vital to our community. For those who buys OEM for this reason, we should all respect and admire your conviction.

If you are living on a shoestring like myself and trying to make every penny count, then a little elbow grease with AM parts may be just the right and only way to work with chainsaws. Many of you on this path had been resourceful with working with issues and sharing lessons learned with AS members. This is your contribution back with our community. I myself have benefited from the wealth of knowledge from this forum and that's what got me hooked on improving my chainsaws.

Both OEM and AM parts have their pros and cons, both have successes and failures. I was given an OEM cylinder and piston to play around with because the lightly used and almost scratchless Stihl that it came from, had its OEM piston skirt disintegrate and chewed up the cylinder. OEM is not flawless, but in general it does works out of the box without any retouching. AM parts are hit and miss as apparent from many posts on AS and my personal experience, its like flipping a coin every time. AM parts is not for everyone, but for the ones who dare venture into the unknown, its can be very good deal. Paying 10% of the cost for 70-100% for the performance and durability as in the case of a cylinder may be a good 7-10X ROI gamble if you exclude the elbow grease, or likely 3-5X ROI if you include labor at minimum wage of $15/hr in the Pacific NW. What you pay could be more than what you get in those terms.

Regardless, it would be great if we get more photo posting of AM parts and its successes and failures, it helps everybody in the long run - it pushes the industry, both the big boys and the newcomers to innovate and up their game.

 

[drf255]

There will always be some inferior portion on an AM vs an OEM jug. Just how it is, and sometimes it’s just not so apparent.

Besides what’s obvious, one has to realize the countless hours and cash that go into R&D at the OEM.

The “invisible” part is generally the ports internally. Even if one has the skills to fix all that’s outside and viewable, the insides are cast as they are and may not perform as intended. Very often it’s the curves and direction inside the tunnels (or the roofs and floors) that makes an OEM run better.

To the OP, I fully agree with you taking the plunge with AM parts. The difference will become very noticeable to you in the future, you will see. When you finally start chopping up an OEM jug, you’ll also notice that the plating will be harder to get through. It’s tougher and thicker.

One can make an AM jug perform as well as OEM, it just takes a lot of time and experience.

We did a buildoff on the Forbidden AboristSite which called for MS440 or 460 AM jugs. I used a meteor, which took many hours to carve and had the hardest and thickest plating I’ve encountered yet in any jug. It was about 2-3X as thick as OEM and ruined many cutters. I know that the plating will last virtually forever in this jug.

It won class 2 in the buildoff.

 

[drf255]

The chamber closeup illustrates the plating thickness. The chamber is plated, but the band has been cut to expose bare aluminum. Look at the band/chamber interface. The plating has to be a solid .030 thick in this jug.

I used a machined meteor 272 piston in this build with a machined 460 pin. As above, the OEM 460 pin is lighter but actually longer than the meteor pin. It needed some lathe love to fit.

The meteor 272 piston with some crown removed approximates the weight of a stock 440 piston. It gives the 440 crank some relief when building a 52mm hybrid.

 

[drf255]

 

[Axotopia]

Drf255, thanks for sharing the incredible work, I am inspired! Great reminder that there is a lot more at work than just what's visible.