New Business Venture

[Haliburton Rev]

Good Afternoon All,

I have a few questions I was hoping some of you may be able to answer. I am sure there will be many seasoned professionals that may jump on me with considerable negativity but here go's.

I am looking to start up or purchase an existing Tree service company. However I am not a professional Arborist, or do I feel I am any way comparable to one. I am however well seasoned as an entrepreneur and am stellar in business management, customer relations and of course sales. I am 34yrs old, have owned and operated 3 separate locations of a leading pizza delivery company. I have since sold those stores and have spent the past 9 years in the automotive industry in a Sales Management position dealing mainly with fleet, commercial and government clients. I have been successful in previous ventures as well as my current career and am very respected by both peers, employee's and product manufacturer's. I am a H.O with property's in both southern and central Ontario. My property in central Ontario is a cottage on a lake and we have roughly 3 acres of bush property. There is nothing I enjoy more up there then working in the bush. Cutting up downed trees for firewood and felling both problem and dead trees is by far a favorite hobby of mine. I have no real formal training and all the experience I have is via a tremendous amount of research and hands on trial. I know it sounds silly and unsafe however I have never considered taking on any tree I felt nervous or unsure about and make safety my main concern.

I am not looking to become a professional climber or be the key individual in the hands on day to day actual removal or maintenance of tree's. I am in great shape and I am sure with the proper training and expedience climbing is something I could do and would most likely enjoy very much. I am however looking to gain the required experience and knowledge to properly estimate jobs and run the business. Based on my background I feel I would perform better in obtaining and maintaining new business and clientele. As earlier mentioned I am no stranger to operating a business however I am a stranger to this industry.

My questions are as follows,

1) What would be the best way to gain experience in this industry? Courses with local college's? Looking for employment within local business?

2) If looking for employment with local business how many Business owners would be eager to hire someone with no actual Forestry experience but lots of Sales and Management experience just not in the correct industry. And who would possibly be the competition in the future.

3) Is there any licensed and experienced Arborist in the southern Ontario area that are capable of performing the hands on work, supervise a crew, help at first with estimating, train and be willing to get involved ground floor with a new start up?

Thank you in advance for any input both positive and negative.

Cheers.

 

[clearance]

Welcome to the site. I recently worked for a guy who started a tree service doing just removals. He had no knowledge of tree work but was good salesman (fine line between saleman and conman imho). He got the price of the previuos bids out of the prospective customer and learned how to bid that way. I gave the guy advice, he took some of it, but refusud to get good groundsman by not wanting to pay them well, second guessed me even though I produced well. So I quit, now he refuses to pay me the money I worked for. My advice is to just go and work as a groundsman for a couple of weeks to get the feel. The only way to really get the hang of it is to do it, if you work on a crew you will hear all the good and bad points about it. It ain't all gravy, there is lots of work involved, lots of equipment to look after, lots of people to keep happy. If I can say only one thing, you usually get what you pay for, be that men or equipment.

 

[Haliburton Rev]

Thanks for the reply Clearance. The advice is well taken.

I fully believe that proper maintenance and up keep is extremely important with all motorized equipment. Especially potentially dangerous equipment. No matter what I purchase or have purchased I always try to get the best possible equipment or toy for the task and or activity at hand. One of the many things I have learned over the years is that if a deal is to good to be true it always is just that.

Not only good staff but happy staff is the backbone to any business. This is key when you are dealing with an entire sales staff that is paid flat commission and they are having a slow month. Bills still have to be paid and it is very easy for a sales representative to find him or herself discouraged by a dry streak. It is amazing how a house deal and a free tank of gas in a sales reps demo that is having a bad month can boost spirits and moral.

As for dishonesty it is unfortunate however I feel that is based simply on a persons character opposed to profession. I think coming across shady and dishonest characters is simply a fact of life.

Thanks again.

 

[Jumper]

Good points by Clearance.

For your business ultimately to be a success you will require honest and hardworking certified arborists and hardworking competant groundsmen. The former are in scarce supply, and the latter very difficult to recruit, let alone retain IMHO. It has to do with $$$$, after all why bust your a$$ for $10 an hour when you can earn more doing something a whole lot less mentally and physically stressful. I examined the concept along the lines of your train of thought and concluded there were a lot easier ways of making money, given I am not likely to become a proficient climber, and every company I worked for on the ground had trouble hiring and retaining staff as above, between alcoholic and drug users, deadbeat dads, plain ordinary folks who sort of lost their way in life, thieves, bums and lazy b*stards. I did meet a few "nice" people along the way BTW. Add to the whole mix a buying public who figures tree work should be cheap hired labour (BAD industry wide image IMHO) and the requirement for the owner to be either a very competant equipment mechanic or willing to pay large $$$$$ for someone else to do it for you.

I do not think it would be too difficult to get hired on by a local company as a groundsman, look in www.jobbank.gc.ca, using tree as a keywork. I got hired with no experience except having spent a lot of time outdoors in the Armed Forces. Last guy I worked for was a Forestry Major, and I am a Commerce grad, together we must have been one of the most over educated crews in Ontario. Your closest Community College with a program is Flemming in Peterborough, believe Humber in TO also offers a program as well, as does Kemptville College affiliated with Guelph I recall.

I might add one place I also was a non climbing crew chief, mainly because someone had to be in charge and deal with the customers. The climber was covered in tattoos and piercings, often did not bathe and looked a little looney, especially after doing dope on the job, and the other groundie smoked dope on the job, likely could not present the customer with a correctly compiled bill and was socially challanged. Neither drove, the groundie had lost his ON license for being a deadbeat dad. The company eventually closed shop due to cash flow problems I would estimate.

If you pay enough someone will be interested in the business side of the equation, for a climber with the skills you are seeking, at least $30 an hour, and for a groundie that is going to stick around $15. I am not sure if your company would make any money paying these kinds of wages however.

So I just moved here and curiously enough, despite all the money flying around this place, there are no tree services listed in the Yellow pages. There are quite a few trees in residential areas, especially the older ones. I think someone could do well here establishing a company perhaps affiliated with a landscaper or garden centre to commence with....

My two cents...

 

[Justice]

Hi Haliburton Rev,

I was curious why you have a desire to get into tree work?

I too am an experienced sales person (stock broker,insurance broker), but have had 8 yrs exclusive in arboriculture, and 20yrs in tree work of some kind. It would seen to me however if you are an experienced sales person, selling is MUCH easier, and MUCH less stressful if you intend on starting up your own business.

The basic knowledge, start up costs, and overall "unknown's" are for the most part only learned from experience IMO. that experience would usually involve climbing and doing the actually work. A crew with a good climber or bucket operator, and ground men are a make it or break it issue with a company. Only money will get you these things. Such a crew can make you lots of money, and a bad crew will wreck you.

From my experience someone to help you start up a company would require a work contract (2 yr) with guarantee's worked in. From your sales experience you would have to know about such contacts. If you treat this business as you would any professional business then you are already ahead of the game.

BTW, I used to live in Oakville. You are close to there correct? That whole area is becoming a good area for mature tree's and tree care.

 

[ddhlakebound]

Good Afternoon All,

I have a few questions I was hoping some of you may be able to answer. I am sure there will be many seasoned professionals that may jump on me with considerable negativity but here go's.

I am looking to start up or purchase an existing Tree service company. However I am not a professional Arborist, or do I feel I am any way comparable to one. I am however well seasoned as an entrepreneur and am stellar in business management, customer relations and of course sales. I am 34yrs old, have owned and operated 3 separate locations of a leading pizza delivery company. I have since sold those stores and have spent the past 9 years in the automotive industry in a Sales Management position dealing mainly with fleet, commercial and government clients. I have been successful in previous ventures as well as my current career and am very respected by both peers, employee's and product manufacturer's. I am a H.O with property's in both southern and central Ontario. My property in central Ontario is a cottage on a lake and we have roughly 3 acres of bush property. There is nothing I enjoy more up there then working in the bush. Cutting up downed trees for firewood and felling both problem and dead trees is by far a favorite hobby of mine. I have no real formal training and all the experience I have is via a tremendous amount of research and hands on trial. I know it sounds silly and unsafe however I have never considered taking on any tree I felt nervous or unsure about and make safety my main concern.

I am not looking to become a professional climber or be the key individual in the hands on day to day actual removal or maintenance of tree's. I am in great shape and I am sure with the proper training and expedience climbing is something I could do and would most likely enjoy very much. I am however looking to gain the required experience and knowledge to properly estimate jobs and run the business. Based on my background I feel I would perform better in obtaining and maintaining new business and clientele. As earlier mentioned I am no stranger to operating a business however I am a stranger to this industry.

My questions are as follows,

1) What would be the best way to gain experience in this industry? Courses with local college's? Looking for employment within local business?

2) If looking for employment with local business how many Business owners would be eager to hire someone with no actual Forestry experience but lots of Sales and Management experience just not in the correct industry. And who would possibly be the competition in the future.

3) Is there any licensed and experienced Arborist in the southern Ontario area that are capable of performing the hands on work, supervise a crew, help at first with estimating, train and be willing to get involved ground floor with a new start up?

Thank you in advance for any input both positive and negative.

Cheers.

Here are my thoughts as I read through your post. You want to start or buy a tree service, without knowing anything about the business. I see only 2 options if you truly want to accomplish this.

The first is to sacrafice a couple of years to learn the business. Even then you'll be a green newbie. (trust me, i know) Without the knowledge of what things cost, and how long it takes to get a job done, how to get the job done, you could easily lose your a$$, get sued, or worse, get someone hurt or killed due to lack of knowledge. I don't see hiring someone as a viable option right now, because you don't have the knowledge to be able to determine if who you hire is doing either good or efficent work. Hiring someone also increases your personal risk, because they have no personal interest in the success of the enterprise. If things aren't going well, they can just bail, and find another job. So you'd need to find a qualified, reputable business, and hire in at the bottom, and learn from there. If you choose this route, making sure the people you choose to learn from are qualified and reputable is the highest priority.

The second option is to find a partner. Most people say partnerships are bad, and doomed from the start within a short time. I generally wouldn't argue with that, even though my business partner and I are working out fine so far. We were best friends for years beforehand, neither of us is particularly greedy, and we both had knowledge of the business before startup.

It sounds to me like you'd be finding someone you don't know, and that makes the proposition too risky for me, right from the start.

But having someone who knows the business, and is invested in the success of the enterprise from the start are critical to your success. To me, that doesn't mean employee. It means partner. If you don't have someone with knowledge of the business whom you already trust, this probably isn't the best option. Risks and stresses everywhere.

I think that if I were in your position, and wanted to break into the tree business, I'd play to my strengths, (sales) and sell yourself to an small operating tree company. In the beginning you'd have to generate the leads, and have their salesman come with you to bid jobs. Spend the bulk of your time finding new clients and learning to bid jobs, and the rest of it working with the crew on the jobs you've helped sell. You woud need to establish your commission rate with the company, and your hourly rate for the labor hours you spend.

This way, both you and the tree company are benefiting each other. (Provided that you turn out to be good at selling tree work.) They get to spend their time doing the treework, while you do the legwork, and learn the business.

It sound like you're in a great market, and surely there are small tree companies not listed in the YP, who are ready to move up the ladder a notch or two. Find a good one, learn what you need to, make some commission and hourly wage, and keep the tree company busy. Everyone will be happy, and your personal risk will be minimized while you learn.

 

[Haliburton Rev]

Justice thanks for the reply,

I have been going over and researching different ventures for almost the past 4yrs. Automotive, equipment leasing, general contracting, insulation, residential home flipping, landscape and landscape design as well as countless other avenues. The one I keep coming back to is Tree Service. I have a few Tree companies as clients. Some more professional then others and they all seem to be doing well.

You are correct in saying I am near Oakville (next door) and that there is currently a large demand for tree service in and around the Golden Horseshoe. I have clients that have been in the Tree Business for 50yrs and some that have been in business for 2yrs. The one thing that they all have in common is that they are all extremely busy.

As far as work go's I am somewhat of a work/knowledge aholic as well as a perfectionist. When something intrigues me it somewhat takes over my whole mental thought process. I am no stranger to demanding physical work. Eat well, exercise and I am in great shape. As I mentioned earlier there is not much I enjoy more then working out in the bush up at our cottage. I think over the past 2yrs I have amassed enough firewood to last me the next 5-6yrs.

I am well aware that there is a great deal of risk involved in starting up any business. Especially one that I am not as experienced in as I maybe should be. However I personally know many people with a strong business sense that have ventured into the un known and prospered. Things were not always easy and the road was rocky at many points but if you are dedicated, clear minded and wise anything is possible. My current plan is this, obtain and retain an experienced foreman and a good crew. Pay everyone fairly and according to there ability. Demonstrate and practice the skills I currently obtain which include unmatched customer service, marketing and advertising, business sense and know how.

Financially I am in good shape. Funds are available in order to start things both professionally and on the right track. Not starting with 5 trucks on the road but hope to get there over time. I have a very good friend that works in sales for one of the leading forestry equipment manufactures. He has already been a wealth of knowledge and has offered his thoughts on what and what not to go with as far as equipment.

Current time frame for start up is March 08..Any thoughts? This allows me a bit of time to gain employment and some hands on training and experience within in the industry.

Thanks again for all the advice put forward, and please anyone with any thoughts, suggestions, criticism etc please feel free to express.

 

[Justice]

Hi Haliburton,

It seems like you are on track with your vision. There is always a lots of work, almost everywhere.
Sales is a tricky thing, that is really a make or break situation for a company. To really be able to back up you sales ability and bring in the best paying jobs, credentials are key. ISA, Certified Tree Expert, or other certifications mean A LOT when it comes to municipal, or high end clients. Knowing your species, common, and Latin, pests, disease, and how to treat (even if you have no intention of doing pesticides yourself).

Do you have a Shade Tree Commission or equivalent in Burlington? It would make sense to participate if you can (networking). As a start up I concur with ddhlakebound that a partnership would be the best situation, IF you can find someone in the market to start one with you, combining your strengths, and using a good lawyer to protect each other and the company.

Did you grow up in the area? I went to school in Oakville 6-10.

Feel free to PM me if you have more specific questions.

 

[toscottm]

Haliburton Rev,

Give me a call to discuss at 416-229-6600 or 905-448-1045. There are dozens of company owners in either the Burlington or Haliburton areas that I can put you onto. Additional contacts include Andrew Hordyk (c/o Arborwood Tree Service) of Arboriculture Canada Training & Education, Humber College, Sir Sandford Fleming College, Ontario Commercial Arborist Association, etc.

Scott

 

[lawmart]

haliburton give me a call (905- 388-3364 )or pm me i own a tree company out of carlise/ waterdown area that services oakville to st, Cathrine's and city of brampton. might have work for you. Andrew has all the climber he needs with jonney tree cop now.

 

[soutz]

Welcome to the site. Mate if you are doing removals cool. if you are going to get into prunning you better have some idea about health and astectiics or you and your company will get a certain rep real quick. No subsitute for experience in this trade.hire good climbers and groundies.People that can sum up a job in ten words or less then do it. pay them well.good equipment is paramount for lower stress levels. No disrespect but this isnt pizza alot of hard work goes into it before you get paid,cashflow can be up and down with any type of contracting.with thousands of dollars per job wrapped up its great when it comes off but can be very stressful when it doesnt.good luck i hope you do well, but get some idea of the skills invoved before you sink a whole heap of money. most of the guys doing this dont do it for the money otherwise we would all be very well paid for the risks we all take.:monkey:

 

[treeseer]

To better understand your hoped-for transition, why are you leaving your job?

 

[af7850]

You can do this Hal, it's not rocket science. I am currently doing exactly what you're looking to do, I'm 6 months into it and booming.

The fact is that there are a lot of tree guys out there who are great arborists. However, just as knowing something and being able to teach it are two different skill-sets, knowing tree work and running a tree business are two totally different skill-sets. If you are a skilled business leader, you are just as valuable to the tree business as a skilled arborist.

I started in this industry while doing some business development consulting last year, and believe me, within 6 months it is very possible to learn the business side (pricing, work flow, etc), and to get a basic understanding of arboriculture.

At the beginning of the year, I took over a (very) small established company. By streamlining the business processes and carefully selecting employees, we are already on the way to doubling business over last year. Our marketing is generating 5-10 calls per day, at a daily cost of approx. $125. We have a 60% closing ratio on those calls, at an average job price of $647. Overall, 64% of our business is new business generated by our marketing efforts, with the remaining percentage coming from repeat / referral business. Total overhead for the business is currently high - around 60%, but with a little rearranging I hope to have it down to 50% in the next 6-8 weeks.

I'm not posting this to brag; I just figure that if I'm telling you it can be done I had better back it up a little. If you can learn as much as humanly possible about arboriculture before March 08, develop a sound business plan, and hire the right skilled labor you'll be in a great position to create success.

Email me at [email protected] if you would like to talk.

 

[Haliburton Rev]

af7850, Just emailed you.