New guy looking for advice

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RyKR

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The last couple of years I have been removing trees (firewood for personal use and one or two favors for the neighbors) and I find I really enjoy it. I am thinking that I would like to change careers and get into tree climbing, trimming, and removals. I am scheduled to take a basic arborist class (ACRT - does anyone have any experience with these classes?) and would like to get in with a crew and get experience, possibly to start a small business of my own in the future.

So a couple of questions.
  • In general, what kind of starting wages can one expect just getting into the industry and then with a few years experience? I'm prepared to take a temporary pay cut, but I need to be able to justify it in the end.
  • I realize a brief education and certification doesn't equal experience, but will the climbing school be valuable to someone getting started or should I try to get in with a crew and take the courses later?
  • What tips would you give someone to help point them in the right direction?
For the record, I am located in NE Indiana between Marion and Fort Wayne.
 
I started off at home with no education and learned by trial and error. eventually (when I had learned most of the climbing methods) I made the career change. from what ive seen, most guys start off on the ground and work their way into the trees after a year or two if it interests them and they are willing to make the investment in the gear. you start off pruning and doing small boring jobs at first and get into removals as the owner/crew manager gains faith in your abilities. although some skill sets keep you on certain types of jobs. I have a natural talent for limb walking and focus on proper pruning techniques so my employer tends to put me in large crowned trees in high rent districts and returned customers. starting wages can suck but pay wage cap mostly depends on how valuable you make yourself. one guy on our crew makes 35 an hour but he mostly does high risk/huge tree jobs and is able to do them as fast as the ground crew can keep up, sometimes we have as many as 7 guys on the ground beneath him and can barely keep up. I suppose it makes sense to note that I live in Oregon where our market is flooded with climbers and tree companies of all sizes.
 
Thanks guys.

Ideally, I'd like to get into this part time and gain some experience and then go from there. Worst case scenario would be that I don't like it as much as I think I will and then I will wind up doing odd jobs for friends/family and keeping my woodpile stocked.

I've heard starting wages for groundsmen around here being in the neighborhood of $13 but I haven't heard anything about climbers.
 
The Moral Doldrums thread in the Commercial forum.......
How do you feel about being taught how to climb while getting paid $12/hr? Do you, or have you ever worked at Cabelas?
 
I was reading that earlier. I'd rather not get that argument going over here too. No, I have never worked at Cabela's.
 
My advice, don't do it. Best, most exciting work ever but after 20 years climbing I'm just real lucky to be alive and not in so much pain. Oh, and there is no money in it. If you're good at business then you might do well but then again you would do just as well in something more lucrative.
 
Kidding about Cabelas.
Couple of lessons I've learned / am learning about running a small biz:
1. Hard to retain good workers. This gets compounded by long winters = negative cash flow.
2. a. You never "arrive" at having everything you need. b. what you need is expensive.
3. The job beats you up over time. Physically and mentally.
4. If you are lousy salesman, but a good climber, you will become a not-for-profit business, or a contract climber. (Or both)
5. If you are a lousy climber, but a good salesman, you will need to hire a climber. Refer to point 1.
6. If you are mediocre at both, then your star will burn brightly and briefly.
 
Word Pelorus. I kinda suck at business. Think I am pretty good at the other stuff. There is a guy here, that sucks at all of it, but the business end, he has a degree. I always hear horror story's of him and his crew, have watched them work and have witnessed them destroying trucks and equip. I always think "that will be it for them" and then ya see them still out there? Very true, that if you are good at business, then you will survive, even if you are horrible at the job. If you are great at convincing people that your shoody work is hi level, then you will be able to maintain.

The other thing ya gotta think about is when to do the right thing. Some guys will mow over anyone that they think that they can take advantage of. Same guy approached a functioning autistic women that me and my wife look after, down the street from me. She lived in a mental home most of her life until her dad moved her into a house with him. They had a huge hack berry go down. I had dealt with her sister who is outa state and her accountant who controls her finances. Her dad was a Marine and a very wealthy man. He had dementia. I agreed to help keep her safe and sound after he passed. He left her a couple million. She is in no way, capable of making sound financial decisions on her own and can be taken advantage of really easy. So she has no real control over her money, as she will get taken. This D-Bag, hears about the job and comes in and try's to get here to sign with him, knowing full well that she is in the condition...... that she is. He was not called for a bid, just shows up. He tells her that he will beat my bid, so she says ok. He words it to actually be more than mine, just breaks it down in a way that was even confusing for me. Out the door, he would have been 500 more than me. But, told her it was cheaper. He, not knowing that she has no say in what happens, just knows she was left a bunch of money and thinks that he has it. He got pretty chitty with her when I started. Pretty freakin pathetic to take advantage of a mentally handicapped person. My point. If you get into this, you will be face with moral conundrums, unlike the other deal on the other thread. How you handle them will affect your rep and your pocket book in opposite ways. Are you going to get into this just to make a buck by any means possible or are you going to do the right thing, even if it means walking away and not making a dime. I don't have to do hi pressure sales, my rep allows me to charge a premium, as people know I am trust worthy and always do the best job possible. Are you going to do everything possible to learn as much as you can, act in a honorable professional manor or are you going to just learn the basics, become a slicked tongued salesman and do as little as possible for the biggest return, cutting corners as much as you can.
 
A lot of wisdom in those last two posts. Pay attention to everything they said.
The only thing I will add.......
Despite the real danger and low pay, sometimes it is a bit fun.
 
Big trucks equals big bucks! We just run a 2 man crew usually. But without the chip truck, chipper, bucket truck and other EXPENSIVE gadgets we would kill ourselvs on a daily basis just working too hard to get the job done. Stacking brush on a trailer and unloading by hand is harder than removing or pruning a whole days work. Also getting rid of brush and chips can be a hassel. I have a huge burn pile for brush and a landscaper sometimes takes my chips. Its painful and expensive sport to get started but can be extreamely rewarding!!
 
I love what I do most of the time. Self employment can be scary at times. Large start up costs and it takes years to build a good clientele base. Im in year 3 of running my own biz and still have long slow periods that really stress me out financially. If my wife didn't work there is no way I could make it. During this time of year I may go a whole week or sometimes even 2 weeks without landing a job. So the core group of guys I hire are off doing other things, then when later spring and summer role around and I get busy I have the headache of finding guys that are available to work. My theory is that if I continue doing professional honest work, I will become busier and busier and that's what drives me. Im not a man of patience and its hard not running a 3 man crew 5 days a week but I have faith that It will come. Just my 2 cents.
 
rtsims, are removals your primary business or do you provide all around service?

I work an odd rotating shift where I have 3 days off one week and 4 days off the next. I think that I would be able to get into this part time until I gain enough experience or if I eventually start my own service I would be able to do that part time until I became established. I realize that playing part time may not make sense by the time insurance and other expenses are factored in.
 
The last couple of years I have been removing trees (firewood for personal use and one or two favors for the neighbors) and I find I really enjoy it. I am thinking that I would like to change careers and get into tree climbing, trimming, and removals. I am scheduled to take a basic arborist class (ACRT - does anyone have any experience with these classes?) and would like to get in with a crew and get experience, possibly to start a small business of my own in the future.

So a couple of questions.
  • In general, what kind of starting wages can one expect just getting into the industry and then with a few years experience? I'm prepared to take a temporary pay cut, but I need to be able to justify it in the end.
  • I realize a brief education and certification doesn't equal experience, but will the climbing school be valuable to someone getting started or should I try to get in with a crew and take the courses later?
  • What tips would you give someone to help point them in the right direction?
For the record, I am located in NE Indiana between Marion and Fort Wayne.
I have about $250.000.00 in equipment and I am small time. So if you get a chain saw and a latter tuff road to hole. Some of the big operaters in my area in tree service are in ther close to a $million dolars
 
rtsims, are removals your primary business or do you provide all around service?

I work an odd rotating shift where I have 3 days off one week and 4 days off the next. I think that I would be able to get into this part time until I gain enough experience or if I eventually start my own service I would be able to do that part time until I became established. I realize that playing part time may not make sense by the time insurance and other expenses are factored in.

I provide all around service. Started with timber falling, then removals and stump grinding, then as my knowledge and expertise grew I began trimming and pruning.
 
rtsims, are removals your primary business or do you provide all around service?

I work an odd rotating shift where I have 3 days off one week and 4 days off the next. I think that I would be able to get into this part time until I gain enough experience or if I eventually start my own service I would be able to do that part time until I became established. I realize that playing part time may not make sense by the time insurance and other expenses are factored in.
theres nothing wrong with part time and don't let expenses scare you, just be smart about it and have a plan. If you're working 12's then u are already used to long hours. Doing tree work on your days off will be enjoyable. I think the only problem there is that once your hooked on tree work you may really dread going to your job more so than u already do.
Back to your original question- I went to acrt. When are u scheduled to go? They were in the process of updating their training when I was there so it should be all set by now.
 
Back to your original question- I went to acrt. When are u scheduled to go? They were in the process of updating their training when I was there so it should be all set by now.

I'm going April 7-11. Would you recommend this course to others or am I just wasting time and money?
 
I think it depends on where your at (experience, climbing) and what u want to get out of it. before I went I had no experience and I already purchased my own gear and taught myself how to get up in a tree using recommended reading and videos. I had learned all the knots in the tcc and had a fair understanding of the basics of it. when I got to the class I was a little ahead of the curve on that end. the basic course is just that, the basics. it is to teach someone several knots, tree biology, ansi standards, tree id, and how to get off the ground using a split tail system. although I had already learned some of the topics covered it was valuable to me because I lacked the experience doing it. the course gave me hands on time with a good instructor and gave me the confidence I needed to climb and to go home and build on what I had learned. now I will say again that it is basic and I don't think u will come out of the course with enough knowledge or experience to just go to work in a tree, but it will get u off the ground and give you a foundation to start. if you know other tree guys or work for a tree company I think that would be the way to go but if your on your own then this is somewhere to start. I am planning on going back for the advanced course this summer and I think there's always something to be learned.
 
As someone looking to start a full time tree business, I am watching this thread with interest. One thing I'm curious about is insurance. I've been doing "side work" off the books for a few years now, but want to get insured if I go full time. Those of you with businesses, how long before you got insured and what's your coverage/premiums like (this will probably vary by region, etc)? Did you take out loans to start out for equipment, or buy as you got bigger and/or could afford it?
 

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