New house - thinking about heating with wood - need help

[Kazpian]

Hi all I am hoping I might be able to get some help and suggestions from all you fine folks.
I am building a new house and am looking at the overwhelming choices for heating and would love more information.

I want to be able to heat a house, 2 car garage and possibly a larger shop. I am looking at putting in floor heating using pex pipe in all the concrete and possibly on the main story as well. The two main sources of heating up here (In Manitoba) seem to be natural gas or electric.
Winter can get as low as -40 (that is Celsius or Fahrenheit they are the same at that temp). What I am hoping to do (and please let me know if you have other suggestions or better ideas) is to have the system heated by a natural gas furnace with the option to run a wood boiler as the main heat if it is viable.

I will be putting a large amount of insulation in to ensure that it is easier to heat, so I don't think the btu's is the main concern, I think it's more the viability of hooking up such a system. The other issue I have to contend with is that I am located in a city, which I am sure will lead to many wonderful adventures on it's own.

Any thoughts or help would be greatly appreciated.

So far the only thing I have come up with is to have a wood boiler heat up the liquids in the pipes and have a thermostat that would have the natural gas kick in if it gets to low. Anyone with technical knowledge on this would be able to help me would be greatly appreciated.

thanks again.

 

[Somewood_guy]

Sounds like a good idea, and am curious to your final solution. Sorry I can't be of more help.

 

[howellhandmade]

In a city? Sounds like smoke may be your primary concern. Won't do much good to engineer a primary heat source that is shut down by legislation or complaint. My house isn't very well insulated, but I heat it primarily with two wood stoves downstairs, the NG furnace kicking on when the temp falls below a certain point. Which is pretty much what you're talking about, only without the pex and other stuff. I live in the middle of a residential area, burn 24/7, no visible smoke, no complaints.

Jack

 

[Bcat22]

In a city? Sounds like smoke may be your primary concern. Won't do much good to engineer a primary heat source that is shut down by legislation or complaint. My house isn't very well insulated, but I heat it primarily with two wood stoves downstairs, the NG furnace kicking on when the temp falls below a certain point. Which is pretty much what you're talking about, only without the pex and other stuff. I live in the middle of a residential area, burn 24/7, no visible smoke, no complaints.

Jack

:agree2:

i live in a small town, and i have a setup much like what you describe. if smoke is not going to be an issue, you should be in good shape. other than the initial cost, you won't loose anything if you use one of the other heat sources for awhile.

But beware!!! once you start burning wood, it becomes an incurable addiction that you will never overcome. My Grandfather is 84 years old and the only way we have found to keep him out of the woods is to keep him so stocked up on wood that he hasn't got anywhere to put any more. I can only hope i'm still able to do this at his age, and i'm sure my kids will try to stop me.

 

[Kazpian]

Bcat22 If you could be so kind as to elaborate a bit on your setup I would be eternally grateful. I know wood can be an incurable disease. I am a certified arborist in my province so I figured if I am going to get paid to knock them down I may as well save money disposing of them as well.

Anyone else with any info that could help I would also really appreciate. I am hoping smoke won't be an issue, I am on a quarter acre, which I know isn't much in the country but it is a very large lot in the city.


Thanks again to all here who have helped me in the past. I only hope I can do the same for others in the future.

 

[Bcat22]

Bcat22 If you could be so kind as to elaborate a bit on your setup I would be eternally grateful. I know wood can be an incurable disease. I am a certified arborist in my province so I figured if I am going to get paid to knock them down I may as well save money disposing of them as well.

Anyone else with any info that could help I would also really appreciate. I am hoping smoke won't be an issue, I am on a quarter acre, which I know isn't much in the country but it is a very large lot in the city.


Thanks again to all here who have helped me in the past. I only hope I can do the same for others in the future.

well, first and foremost, my biggest recommendation concerns the stove. i have a woodmaster 4400 with a forced draft. since you are in town, i would definently recommend some type to stove with the forced draft. My neighbor was a naturally drafted OWB, it smokes constantly. and i don't mean a little smoke, i mean a lot of smoke 85% of the time. Mine, on the other hand, only smokes a little when it first calls for heat and when it first closes the damper at the end of the cycle. In town, i would think less smoke would be desirable.

Now for the rest of the setup....

My house is 2200 SQF living space with a 44x28 basement that i hope to finnish over the next few years. i had the basement floor tubed with 1/2 pex, at 1 foot intervals, in three separate loops. there is 2 inches of Styrofoam board insulation under the concrete. I HAD 1 inch foam board along the walls to keep the heat from leaching into the ground through the walls, but the guys that poured the floor pulled it all out (I was at work).
I have all propane appliances(furnace, cooking stove, hot water tank). the furnace has a heat exchanger sitting in the duct work above the A/C coils. I use a 2 stage heat pump thermostat to control the heat in the winter. stage one only turns on the blower on the furnace, pushing air through the HX on top of the furnace. stage 2 is wired to the normal heat input on the furnace. this way, you can set two different differentials for your heat. the way mine is set up, the blower kicks on when the temp gets 1 deg. below the set point. when the temp gets 4 deg. below the set point, the propane backup heat kicks on in the furnace.

i also have a 30 plate water/water HX for my hot water tank(DHW). it is setup to pre-heat the water going into the heater, thus eliminating the need to heat the water once it is in there. I have the temp setting on the tank set pretty low, so if the fire is out, the propane will still kick on to keep the water hot. the HX does such a good job that you will need a mixing valve hooked up to DHW to make sure you don't take a 180 deg shower.

the three floor loops in the basement have there own thermostat. i used a taco 7 pump to push water through the pex, with limiting valves to fine tune each zone so they heat evenly.

the OWB uses a taco 11 pump, which i have setup to run all the time, unless the low temp alarm is triggered and the backup heat is on. i left town for three days the first season i used this setup, figuring i would just stuff the stove full and let the backup heat take over when the stove goes cold. when i git back, i found the water temp was still 120 deg. after some thought, i realized that the furnace was heating the water in the HX then the pump from the OWB was circulating it through the whole system. After this, i bought a digital timer (for the 110v relay in it) and wired things up so that if the backup heat is on, the OWB pump shuts down. this way i'm not heating the entire OWB loop AND the house.

lets see.....

the only other thing worth mentioning is this, i am going to make two changes this summer.
1. i am going to add a side arm to the DHW. the HX does a great job, but if no one uses the hot water for a long time, the water cools off a little. the side arm will help the tank maintain temp all day.
2.i am going to add a bypass valve to the furnace HX so i can burn the OWB all year long for DHW. My uncle does this and only loads his stove every 5-6 days.


the only thing i might recommend different for you would be a larger stove. i load mine once a day about 2/3 full. but if you are heating a big house AND a shop, you would be loading the stove quite a bit more often with a smaller one.

good luck, and keep up posted on what you end up going with.

 

[Kazpian]

I am looking at a Empyre pro series 400
The specs are the following:
http://www.freiers.com/webapp/GetPage?pid=659


I guess I am looking for as much info as I can before I make decisions.

Thanks for everything so far.

So far I think I have decided that I want electric range, I am deciding between an electric tankless hot water heater or an electric hot water tank.

The rest is up in the air.

Thanks again and if you could tell me where you found out all the information about wood boilers I would be greatly appreciative again.

 

[knockbill]

i burn an indoor wood stove & live in a pretty congested suburban area, on a lot not quite as big as yours.... i agree with teh smoke issues that were posted about outside wood burners,,,
there are quite a few threads on this forum about smoke problems and pending legislation here in pa about the owb,,, makes for some interesting reading, and may give you some insite, and questions to ask, before you lay out a lot of money....
good luck with your project...

 

[Dan_IN_MN]

I know that foam insulation is more from the get go.....however, if installed correctly, it should pay for it's self in the long run. It's tough to fill the tiny cracks with the other stuff.

Also, have you considered Geo-Thermo?

Regards

Dan

 

[blackdogon57]

Putting an OWB in a big city is a BAD idea and will only lead to problems. If I were in your shoes I would consider a gas system with a woodstove for comfort and backup. Sell excess wood - it will easily cover the additional cost of gas and then some. I have family in Winnipeg - they are paying close t0 400 per cord for birch firewood.

For those of you not familiar with Winnipeg I can assure you that OP is not BS'ing. Winnipeg has brutally cold winters.

 

[Kazpian]

I know that foam insulation is more from the get go.....however, if installed correctly, it should pay for it's self in the long run. It's tough to fill the tiny cracks with the other stuff.

Also, have you considered Geo-Thermo?

Regards

Dan

I have considered Geo-Thermal it is unfortunately not cost effective from the last time I had it priced out. I plan on doing enough insulating that it minimizes the amount of heating required.
I would love to do spray foam as well and am hoping to find enough grants to make it work, but I am currently going with the assumption that I will be using standard bats to insulate.


I was looking at the Empyre pro series and was impressed by the lack of smoke. Granted that is coming from a product demo which can be recorded as often as required to get perfect shots. I have emailed the company that manufactures the product hoping that there is someone nearby that runs it that I might be able to see.

blackdogon57: Sounds like they are paying a pretty high price to me, but I guess if they are happy with their supplier they aren't to worried.

Thanks for all the help so far and I would love to hear any other thoughts that would be useful.

 

[Bcat22]

looks like a nice stove to me. i would say the down draft design would significantly cut down on the smoke. don't let people turn you away from an OWB, if you've got the wood to feed it, it will keep your WHOLE house warm, not just one room like a reg wood stove. and you would need another for the shop... and to have chimneys installed...and cleaned....not to mention the hassles with home owners insurance.

your best bet is to try to find someone with the model stove you are going to buy and go to there house to look at it. i just randomly stopped at peoples houses when i was researching mine. you would be surprised how happy people are to show off their toys. i stopped at this old timers house to look at his woodmaster, showed me his stove then talked about it for an hour. what sold me was when i asked him about how the service was when he had issues. other people talked about how nice the service folks were when they had warranty issues, but this guy says "had this stove for ten years, put on a new pump 2 years ago, ain't never needed no warranty". i went that weekend to buy one.

 

[coog]

I would love to do spray foam as well and am hoping to find enough grants to make it work, but I am currently going with the assumption that I will be using standard bats to insulate.


Whatever you do, find the money for foam.It is the best investment you can make, and will lessen the money you need to spend on your heating source.If necessary,I would skimp on some of the finishes that can be changed later in order to foam instead of using batts.I agree with the others that a stove or indoor boiler make better sense in your situation.

 

[Somewood_guy]

I would love to do spray foam as well and am hoping to find enough grants to make it work, but I am currently going with the assumption that I will be using standard bats to insulate.


Whatever you do, find the money for foam.It is the best investment you can make, and will lessen the money you need to spend on your heating source.If necessary,I would skimp on some of the finishes that can be changed later in order to foam instead of using batts.I agree with the others that a stove or indoor boiler make better sense in your situation.

+1 - If anything, just get your roof deck done with the spray foam, but as much as possible is better.

 

[CrappieKeith]

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=124366
Read this thread if your looking at woodmaster.

Tarm or Garn may be a better choice.Central also has some pretty good OWB's.

 

[Kazpian]

Is a woodmaster the same as an Empyre ? Sorry for the ignorant question but when I was looking around it seems like the exact same stoves were being sold with 20 different names.

thanks again to all who have replied.

 

[Boundaryh20]

Forget the OWB...look into a wood gasification unit (Eko/Tarm/others). There are other sites with good info, pm me if you can't find them.
Bryan

 

[coog]

Forget the OWB...look into a wood gasification unit (Eko/Tarm/others). There are other sites with good info, pm me if you can't find them.
Bryan

#1.You'd have neighbors pissed off before you lit the first fire in a OWB.Should you decide to go with a wood stove, let me recommend Wiessmann for your boiler.Not cheap to buy, but very efficient.

 

[Bcat22]

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=124366
Read this thread if your looking at woodmaster.

Tarm or Garn may be a better choice.Central also has some pretty good OWB's.

bound to be one dud. its like this, i know 5 people araund here with Woodmasters, ranging from 12 to 3 years in service, the most trouble i have heard of is one guy had to replace the blower in the door after 7 years.

 

[cjcocn]

I would love to do spray foam as well and am hoping to find enough grants to make it work, but I am currently going with the assumption that I will be using standard bats to insulate.


Whatever you do, find the money for foam.It is the best investment you can make, and will lessen the money you need to spend on your heating source.If necessary,I would skimp on some of the finishes that can be changed later in order to foam instead of using batts.I agree with the others that a stove or indoor boiler make better sense in your situation.

I'm pretty sure that MB Hydro does not give rebates for new construction. It might be best to contact some of the local spray foam service providers to find out for sure.

While you are at it, ask them if they can give you quote for a 2" skin for different sections of your house (attic, basement, walls, etc). Going with a 2" skin will not only give you an R12 start on insulation value, but will also give you your moisture barrier and will totally seal up the areas that you get sprayed.

The total seal practically eliminates the thermal breaks that are inherent with fiberglass bat insulation. The result of using spray foam insulation is that your house will effectively have a higher than rated R-Value because of the reduction or elimination of thermal breaks. How well the spray foam seals depends on how much of the home is spray foamed and the coverage of each area sprayed (will they cover the studs, etc). You can bet that each area that is spray foamed will be the best insulated areas of your home.

NOTE: if you opt for part spray foam and part fiberglass bat, then you will have to add some poly vapor barrier anyway. The poly will be needed as interior moisture would otherwise be able to migrate through the interior wall sheathing and subsequently through the fiberglass batting.

Just remember that with the total seal that is available through the use of spray foam insulation, air circulation becomes a priority. Not only does spray foam keep moisture out, but it keeps it in as well. That means that all moisture generated within the home (showers, cooking, etc) has to have an avenue of escape or it will stay in the home and over time can rot wood from inside.

If nothing else, go for the 2" skin (especially in the attic) and save yourself some headaches down the road. Every time you hang a picture, put a hook in the ceiling, and every time your drywallers miss a stud the integrity of the poly vapor barrier is compromised. Over time, condensation will migrate through these breaks and lead to repairs down the road. You can eliminate that with the use of spray foam.

Your heating and cooling bills will likely be ±20% less if you go with spray foam (even with a 2" skin). Depending on the overall build, your savings could be higher.

HTH