Well put. 2" of foam are worth more than 12" of pink fuzz, and r values are meaningless wherever there is air infiltration.Over 90% of the insulation value of any material occurs in the first inch.
New house - thinking about heating with wood - need help
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Well put. 2" of foam are worth more than 12" of pink fuzz, and r values are meaningless wherever there is air infiltration.Over 90% of the insulation value of any material occurs in the first inch.
superherk
ArboristSite Lurker
for the original poster, here is my 2 cents worth. i am a retired home builder in ontario and have tryed several different setups over the yrs. here are some cost effective ideas. first orient your house if possible facing south, put in some good windows and get some passive solar. on a sunny day i dont load the stove all day , the sun heats the house. no worries with bat insulation but use a good sheathing, not osb but a insulated foam board, around r8 or better. do not bat your ceiling, use blown and use lots , like r50-60. our place is r50
on your lot i would NOT go outside furnace, if there is no by-law against there will be soon. we have a gas FAF with a/c in summer. put in a good wood stove, we have a napolien nz-25 and it does our large house and we get alot of wind, like -30 winchills. when it get below about -10 with a wind i fire up the basement stove, just a cheapie from rona. make sure your stove gets outside air for combustion. (air tight).
ther is alot of hype about geo thermo, on demand hot water, r 40 stiro foam wall systems etc BUT they are all real expencive and will take you yrsd to pay of the capital cost, you will probably move before you recover you up front cost. keep it simple and you will have a lot less matinance costs and hassle too.
good luck, hope this helps you out a little!
on your lot i would NOT go outside furnace, if there is no by-law against there will be soon. we have a gas FAF with a/c in summer. put in a good wood stove, we have a napolien nz-25 and it does our large house and we get alot of wind, like -30 winchills. when it get below about -10 with a wind i fire up the basement stove, just a cheapie from rona. make sure your stove gets outside air for combustion. (air tight).
ther is alot of hype about geo thermo, on demand hot water, r 40 stiro foam wall systems etc BUT they are all real expencive and will take you yrsd to pay of the capital cost, you will probably move before you recover you up front cost. keep it simple and you will have a lot less matinance costs and hassle too.
good luck, hope this helps you out a little!
blackdogon57
Addicted to ArboristSite
Bcat22
ArboristSite Operative
do you really think no one else in this city of 700,000 burns wood???
look at it like this, the colder it is, the higher the smoke will rise over all the houses. personaly, i would be more worried about where to store the wood while you wait for it to season.
look at it like this, the colder it is, the higher the smoke will rise over all the houses. personaly, i would be more worried about where to store the wood while you wait for it to season.
cjcocn
Tree Freak
That's odd, I find that the colder it is - the lower the smoke sits?
On many a cold morning it seems that the smoke actually sinks down to roof top level (a few feet below the chimney).
Buckethead
ArboristSite Operative
+1 on the wood gasification furnace.
From the little research I've done they seem to address the "issues" that OWB suffer from. The WG units are located in the basement, produce little or no smoke, use wood very efficiently, and can easily be tied into virtually any type of heating system. They do require a fair amount of water (heat mass) storage however, this can easily be addressed during construction.
I also support the other suggestions regarding lots of insulation and taking advantage of house position to reap the benefits of solar heating. I think if you address your heating methods from multiple approaches it will benefit you greatly.
Good luck and let us know what you decide.
Bcat22
ArboristSite Operative
That's odd, I find that the colder it is - the lower the smoke sits?
On many a cold morning it seems that the smoke actually sinks down to roof top level (a few feet below the chimney).
heat rises, the greater the differential between hot and cold, the greater the lift, to a point i suppose. i remember quite often on cold, still mornings watching how much higher the smoke rises. then again, it doesn't get below 0 deg f here too often, so maybe super cold makes a dif
cjcocn
Tree Freak
heat rises, the greater the differential between hot and cold, the greater the lift, to a point i suppose. i remember quite often on cold, still mornings watching how much higher the smoke rises. then again, it doesn't get below 0 deg f here too often, so maybe super cold makes a dif
Ah, that's where the difference comes in.
I should have specified that the temps range from about -22F to -40F when the smoke is "hanging." I always figured that it was cold enough to cool the smoke-filled air quickly so that it did not rise as one would normally expect.
.... I guess that makes us both right.
superherk
ArboristSite Lurker
sorry, the point i was trying to make is that around here folks have been burning whatever they can, garbage, tires , plastic etc. this of course does not sit well with the powers that be. also with the outdoor furnaces around here, peaple us to heat their domestic hot water in the off season so thety are damped of alot of the time and when its hot and humid this creates a "smog" effect that we all know that no one likes. i wasnt suggesting not useing wood to heat, just not the outdoor furnace
better check the local laws and also see if any legislation is in the works as mentioned if it isnt in place now it will be and then youll own a 1,000 pound paper weight in your backyard ,research long and hard before buying
davec
ArboristSite Operative
This isn't completely accurate. Spray foam does a great job of air sealing which is a very important piece of the efficiency puzzle. But in conventional stud construction it does not eliminate the thermal bridging. Thermal bridging occurs because you have studs that touch the outer sheathing and the inner drywall and wood does not have anywhere near the insulative value of even fiberglass. There is another great way to solve that problem. Even 1" of foam board on the exterior of the house, either as structural sheathing or an additional layer will do an amazing job of improving the total wall performance. If you combine that with even a thin layer of closed cell spray foam (filling the remaining depth of the stud cavities with cellulose or fiberglass), you will have a very tight and efficient house envelope. Plus the exterior foam, if seam sealed can also act as the exterior drainage plane so it does double duty (i.e, you don't need tyvek).
There are many other ways to obtain super insulated structures, most of which are more involved and thus more expensive. But you get the performance you pay for (if it's done right...) The Canadian gov't has done a lot of work on this and there is a ton of info and resources available to you. Talk to your local building dept for sources.
And lets give the man some rep! C'mon cheapskates!
-Dave
Mud23609
ArboristSite Operative
Indoor wood boiler with storage.
Light it in the morning and run it wide open till it dies out, do the same in the afternoon. Might have to burn a little more or a little less depending on sq footage and insulation.
Almost no smoke because you don't have to damper down as you are just heating your storage for you house to draw heat off of later. As an advantage you will use less wood (less work to keep your house warm).
I wasn't a believer in this kind of setup till I saw one in action when I stayed at a friends house for a few days on a snowmobile trip. Uses five to six cords of wood per winter to heat his house domestic hot water, three stall garage, and thirty by forty shop in northern mn. When the temp drops a ways below zero he said he will reload it a second time in the afternoon instead of just letting it die out. During the summer he only lights it once every three or four days or so for his hot water.
I had been planning on moving to an outdoor wood boiler untill I had a chance to experience his setup. To do it right will cost about the same but the wood savings will be huge. To put it in perspective his neighbor heats his house (about the same size) and garage (just a bit smaller) with an outdoor boiler and uses eight to ten cords a winter.
Light it in the morning and run it wide open till it dies out, do the same in the afternoon. Might have to burn a little more or a little less depending on sq footage and insulation.
Almost no smoke because you don't have to damper down as you are just heating your storage for you house to draw heat off of later. As an advantage you will use less wood (less work to keep your house warm).
I wasn't a believer in this kind of setup till I saw one in action when I stayed at a friends house for a few days on a snowmobile trip. Uses five to six cords of wood per winter to heat his house domestic hot water, three stall garage, and thirty by forty shop in northern mn. When the temp drops a ways below zero he said he will reload it a second time in the afternoon instead of just letting it die out. During the summer he only lights it once every three or four days or so for his hot water.
I had been planning on moving to an outdoor wood boiler untill I had a chance to experience his setup. To do it right will cost about the same but the wood savings will be huge. To put it in perspective his neighbor heats his house (about the same size) and garage (just a bit smaller) with an outdoor boiler and uses eight to ten cords a winter.
cjcocn
Tree Freak
This isn't completely accurate. Spray foam does a great job of air sealing which is a very important piece of the efficiency puzzle. But in conventional stud construction it does not eliminate the thermal bridging. Thermal bridging occurs because you have studs that touch the outer sheathing and the inner drywall and wood does not have anywhere near the insulative value of even fiberglass. There is another great way to solve that problem. Even 1" of foam board on the exterior of the house, either as structural sheathing or an additional layer will do an amazing job of improving the total wall performance. If you combine that with even a thin layer of closed cell spray foam (filling the remaining depth of the stud cavities with cellulose or fiberglass), you will have a very tight and efficient house envelope. Plus the exterior foam, if seam sealed can also act as the exterior drainage plane so it does double duty (i.e, you don't need tyvek).
There are many other ways to obtain super insulated structures, most of which are more involved and thus more expensive. But you get the performance you pay for (if it's done right...) The Canadian gov't has done a lot of work on this and there is a ton of info and resources available to you. Talk to your local building dept for sources.
And lets give the man some rep! C'mon cheapskates!
-Dave
You are absolutely right, Dave.
I was hoping that I covered that off by including "(will they cover the studs)" in my post. :blush:
While spray foaming over the studs is not a common practice, there is a fella that is planning a house just north of here and he is building double 2 x 4 walls. He is wanting to spray foam the outer wall in its entirety, while leaving the inner wall for running wiring, attaching interior sheathing, etc. I am hoping to get a look at his house and speak to him about his insulation methods to see how it all worked out for him.
Another option is to extend your exterior foam board idea a bit further. After installing the 1" foam board, one can then attach z-shaped brackets (I cannot recall the name for these brackets right now) to the wall and spray foam over the foam board to the depth of the brackets. The brackets have holes for attaching a sheathing, and the finish (stucco, siding, etc) is then attached to the sheathing.
A few months ago there was another thread here where spray foam was discussed. Someone brought up the possibility of using wider top and bottom plates so that the 2 x 4 studs can be staggered on the edges. The spray foam would then be applied so that it "wove" in and out, covering every (outer) second 2 x 4. This would result in a complete seal, but the uncovered 2 x 4s would then be spaced too far apart if conventional spacing (16") was used. Running horizontal 1 x 4s could be used to provide continuous attachment points for drywall, etc, but may prove to have too much give?
In short, traditional building methods are not conducive to using spray foam to achieve a total building envelope, but if spray foam gains in popularity then you can bet that someone will come up with a building method that promotes its use.
..... and thanks for the comments. Every time I talk about spray foam I learn a little bit more.
davec
ArboristSite Operative
Yep, you got it. And that is exactly what I meant about there being a lot of ways to ramp up the efficiency of the structure. But as you also noted, they all required significant extra work, cost and planning. Most people don't understand this stuff and don't give a rip about it, so it is rarely done. Only the true fanatics (like me) pay much attention to these details.
Your friend doing the double walls will have some great insulation. Spray foam the first part as you noted, do all your utilities and then blow in cellulose or even fiberglass batts in the inner wall cavity. He'll be up to R-one-beeeelion walls and be totally air sealed.
Your friend doing the double walls will have some great insulation. Spray foam the first part as you noted, do all your utilities and then blow in cellulose or even fiberglass batts in the inner wall cavity. He'll be up to R-one-beeeelion walls and be totally air sealed.
logbutcher
Addicted to ArboristSite
Good ideas here --heating and insulation.:agree2:
For your urban situation go first class with a gasification boiler. HS Tarm has been the high end for decades now, though expensive. There may be a model that is dual fuel, shifting to gas or oil when the wood fire dies.
There's going to be heavy particulate smoke at the start of any wood fire no matter what the system: wood stoves, OWB's, Masonry Fireplaces, gasification furnaces. It's the nature of wood fires. Canada seems to have some pretty tough regs on smoke. Nice that you have a steady wood supply from work.
Be sure to get verified references for any system, including Tarm, from users who have used it for at least two heating seasons. Ask about warranty, customer service, QC, installation .
Keep us in the loop.
For your urban situation go first class with a gasification boiler. HS Tarm has been the high end for decades now, though expensive. There may be a model that is dual fuel, shifting to gas or oil when the wood fire dies.
There's going to be heavy particulate smoke at the start of any wood fire no matter what the system: wood stoves, OWB's, Masonry Fireplaces, gasification furnaces. It's the nature of wood fires. Canada seems to have some pretty tough regs on smoke. Nice that you have a steady wood supply from work.
Be sure to get verified references for any system, including Tarm, from users who have used it for at least two heating seasons. Ask about warranty, customer service, QC, installation .
Keep us in the loop.
RVALUE
Addicted to ArboristSite
This is a pic of house I just finished. (stolen from freehand, ) had my son post it. (I'm computer illiterate)
It is 3 stories, and she heats it with a very small woodstove. It is very well insulated, with cellulose insulation. The stove is midpoint on the second floor, and I know the heater doesn't come on for the top two floors. I'm not sure about the walk out basement. It is 4500 square feet or so.
I wouldn't have guarenteed the heating with such a small stove. But it works. Well built.
It is 3 stories, and she heats it with a very small woodstove. It is very well insulated, with cellulose insulation. The stove is midpoint on the second floor, and I know the heater doesn't come on for the top two floors. I'm not sure about the walk out basement. It is 4500 square feet or so.
I wouldn't have guarenteed the heating with such a small stove. But it works. Well built.
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Kazpian
ArboristSite Lurker
When I was looking for the wood burner the smoke was one of the first things I was worried about. I will apologize if I have used terms interchangeable that I shouldn't have. The one that I was looking at (info here: http://profab.org/products/profabproducts/proseries/index.html)
Mentions wood gasification as well. I am looking into the windows on the south side of the house for passive heating, but that may be limited as that is where the garage will be going.
Again thanks to all for the help.
I am not sure if I can get my construction classified as a remodel or not (there is a house there currently but it is totally unsuited for my needs).
Once again thanks for all of the information available.
Sadly I think that I want to heat with wood because I enjoy campfires so much. The savings just sound like an added bonus
Mentions wood gasification as well. I am looking into the windows on the south side of the house for passive heating, but that may be limited as that is where the garage will be going.
Again thanks to all for the help.
I am not sure if I can get my construction classified as a remodel or not (there is a house there currently but it is totally unsuited for my needs).
Once again thanks for all of the information available.
Sadly I think that I want to heat with wood because I enjoy campfires so much. The savings just sound like an added bonus
Nice looking house.Cellulose is fine for Arkansas, but this guy will need protection from 40° below;he'd know the difference.
milkie62
ArboristSite Guru
If you have to buy wood then there really is no advantage to burning wood IMO.You might be better off getting a pellet stove for your shop.My buudy is a carpenter and he tossed around the idea on how to heat his shop.He did not need it heated all the time so a heater that had any kind of water was out.Then he thought about hot air with a plenum.But with sawdust he felt it might cause it to be airborne.His final decision was 2 propane heaters from Home depot one at each end of the shop.His shop is 20'x50' with 12' ceilings.He does not even go through a 100 lb of propane a winter.
Maybe the glass front on the modern wood stoves is what you really want. I very much enjoy watching a fire....like I'm doing right now. Here's our Jotul Firelight 600cb.
I'm with you, Treeco.I think that one should build a well insulated home in which a wood stove can provide all the heat and entertainment that a person needs.Nice to start from scratch, with a nice NG or propane furnace/boiler for the freedom they allow.
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