New Saw Justification

[fields_mj]

That's some good advise right there Mr Bushmans.

 

[Iska3]

That's some good advise right there Mr Bushmans.

+1

 

[zogger]

I’m somewhat confused as to why the OP wants an M-Tronic in the first place… I mean, really… what sort of cutting conditions does he believe he’ll encounter that the M-Tronic will give him benefit? Just seems like more expense and “stuff” to break in my mind... just un-needed gadgetry slapped on a simple piece of equipment. Really, to tell the truth, I don’t understand why anyone would want an MS441 when the MS460 offers more power at the exact same weight. In my mind the 044/440/441 series wouldn’t even be an option if buying new (coming across a good deal on used is another story).

If I were in the OP’s shoes, I’d be thinking totally different… the weight of my saw(s) is the number one consideration for me. I’d take my MS310 and trade it for an MS362 with two bars… a 16 or 18 inch and a 25 inch. The end result would be a saw weighing a full pound less with a half horsepower more, and the longer bar when needed… a win/win all around.

They start much easier than other saws, they get much better mileage, more cuts per tank of fuel, and there's no need to constantly readjust or tune the carbs for different temps and humidity levels and all the other factors that influence how a saw runs, and it reduces the cloud of exhaust emissions you are standing in much better than you can get with a normal carb, another "hidden" benefit, that some people are more sensitive to than others.

The 441mtronic is a 21st century saw, and you get what you pay for.

Now I can't afford new saws any more, I am stuck on older saws because of budgetary constraints. If I wasn't, I would seriously consider an metronic or autotune for those advanced features. Plus, working on the older saws is teaching me what I need to know for an eventual shop.

And I wouldn't have older used saws to use/run and work on and learn stuff if guys didn't buy new saws in the past.

Same with trucks, I am limited to much older rougher need to work on them a lot trucks.

Heck, same with computers. I'm a nerd, back in the day I paid a LOT for computers, way more than I pay for saws, that today would be considered absurdly low speced, antiques, scrap, but they were dang good for the day THEN, and it was millions of guys like me who made it possible for us to have really good cheap computers now, because it gave the companies money to throw back into more R&D.

I'll bet a nickel right now, after seeing a 441mtronic run here at the farm, another As memeber brought over his brand new one to try out, watching it get started, the easiest saw I have ever seen start, any make or model or size, and then seeing how it cut and handled, that he will so enjoy cutting more that he will up his production easily enough to cover the cost of the saw, then after that, as long as the saw lasts, that's gravy. And I know that member dumped an 066 in good shape, to help fund that new saw, and doesn't miss it a bit, the mtronic does just about the same amount of work as that stocker much bigger saw, at least in reasonable wood say up to 30 inches or so.

The OP wants the most advanced best saw out there in that class, plus a new saw warranty, and the life left in a new saw. that's why he wants it. That costs money.

Some guys here get a 500 buck used saw then send it to get ported, plus any additional parts...they are sneaking right up on a 21st century saw price then. And even though it is running, they still have a used saw with no warranty.

but..no one here questions when guys do that. Or when guys accumulate ten saws of very similar size and make, because they are "collectors", and the saws sit and barely get run ever. Or they'll drop thousands on a gas engine toy, like a racing quad.

Heck man, you just dropped over two grand on a new lawnmower, why didn't you get a 300 dollar used lawnmower? I see hundreds of them in CL, that will crank, run and cut grass just fine. Most I have ever paid for a rider, just a mower, is 75 bucks. Now my wheel horse cost more than that, but that's a real tractor with dozens of available attachments..including a belly mower. And I bet with a weekends work and a few parts, i could sell it now and get all my money back on it.

I'd like to see any just strictly a lawnmower shaped like a tractor do that.

Same deal as the new mower then. You wanted a new mower, had the cash, you wanted advanced features, it had to be better than a cheaper used one, easier to operate, etc, so you did it, you pulled the trigger.

The OP wants new, advanced features, and a warranty, it's for an exact purpose outside of cutting a small amount of personal wood, and had the cash in hand. It's really not that hard to grok this.

 

[Arbonaut]

You're real good with that MS362 it is a saw that will do anything in firewood you need (if you want an element type filter) . This has been my only complaint with my 026 for twenty years. Canister filters only on work saws. This kid doesn't want a used saw because he said he doesn't want to do major mechanical stuff.

I'm big on the 460-But make sure either way you get a pair of matching bumper spikes. Why the hell does a saw that powerful come with one spike? And it is over a grand. Cutting for a profit in the next ten years, you'll save a thousand in fuel with the new platform saw over the 460. It was more fun blasting 76.5 cc saws thru 12-16" logs when gas quality was good and it cost $1.00 per gallon.

 

[KenJax Tree]

I always say if you wait untill you can afford it you will never have so i say buy it.

 

[groundup]

#1 You have time to cut, split, stack and sell 30 cord a year. I'm pretty sure there is some time to work on a saw. I am just about to bring an 044 back to life and I spent only about 10 hours and $300. I have no expertise only a forum of people who believe in me. It is not as hard as one might think to reincarnate a dead saw.

#2 If you cut wood and sell it then it is not considered a hobby. It is a second job. I don't care how you look at it.

#3 When I go hunting and return home with a pocketful of memories and about 60 pounds of venison I don't consider that a waste. Crappy hamburger from the store is running $4.29 lb. that's about $260 worth right there. Fish is expensive too. When your child is old enough to accompany you I do believe there is a chance that they might like hunting and fishing a tad more than hauling truck fulls of wood every weekend in order to spend time with their father.

#4 I don't know how long you have been at this 30 cord a year "hobby" but eventually you will get tired of spending all your free time in the woods and the kid will be playing sports every weekend and basketball in the winter and boy/girl scouts all the other times and you will be so busy that the saw will sit idle in the garage.

#5 Don't dog the saw out then. Cut smarter. Have a few extra chains available so you can just swap out and not sharpen. Of course the extra bar, spark plug etc, etc...

#6 I would love to have that saw but I have that bug that makes me find lesser things and bring them up to standard. It's not about saving for me it is about not spending. The money I could save on your second saw set up would perhaps help me fill my propane tank for next winter or fertilizer for the lawn or for my daughter's first car.

In the end it is whatever you want, as only you can justify. Your mind was made up the second you posted. Perhaps a little assurance was needed. It's all opinions in the end. Good Luck with the saw and post some pics so we have something to drool over!

You make many great points which I understand, but 10 hours of time is easily 3 cords of wood = $540 plus the $300 you have in it and it would still be a used saw that is going to have a shortened life span. That's also considering the fact that I know how to cut, split and sell wood and I enjoy it. I do not enjoy working on saws it's not for me, I want to cut wood and make some green doing it.

I'm not saying I have to call it a hobby, I try to convince my wife all the time it's a part time job I call it a hobby because I enjoy it as much as my other hobbies. Call it whatever you want.

I can't wait until I'm too busy coaching little league to go cut wood, funny how things can change.

 

[ihookem]

I have a little remodeling company. I have noticed over the years I never bought a tool I regretted buying. Last year I bought an aluminum bender for 1500 bucks. Don't use it much but need it so I get it. The truth is a 441 will be much more in 2 years due to the dollar sinking. I bought a 441 for 750 a year ago. I knew it was cheap and will never be cheaper unless a used one comes by. They are 100 bucks more now. If you are selling all the wood you can the saw will pay for itself if you can cut 20% faster. I do find some nice craigslist sometimes. Of course not when I bought a new one though.

 

[saxman]

I am glad you decided to step up and get the 441C. I have a new 441R CM and really love it. I agree with the earlier post by zogger about the increased productivity by using the 441 over your 310, I think you will be amazed by the 441. I was out this week working on some big oak. I had my 660 with a 36" bar and had a 28" on the 441. The 660 didn't have much over the 441 at all and in smaller pieces the 441 cut faster. Be sure and send pictures and share your impressions of the new saw. Keep up the good work, it's good to see a young man that has the ambition to get out and do hard manual labor to earn extra for his family. Many want to lay up in a saloon or sit on the couch playing video games. The 441 will be a good investment that will hold its value well

Steve

 

[Arbonaut]

Bushmans is looking out for you, I can't wait to see how his 044 goes, it is my favorite saw. He made a good point. So many good guys on Arboristsite.
All from various backgrounds and with tons of experience. I don't think there is anything else in the world you can go out and do that is more of a challenge than keeping a woodpile stocked with limited resources in the face of everything that can go wrong. It's one heck of a character builder. Guys like Bush and Preston and Zogger, Manyhobies, Howard270 and many others are the best crew I've met across the web or any where.

You seem like a good kid, Groundup and we're rooting for ya. And I hope you get that saw.

 

[blackdogon57]

I have a little remodeling company. I have noticed over the years I never bought a tool I regretted buying. Last year I bought an aluminum bender for 1500 bucks. Don't use it much but need it so I get it. The truth is a 441 will be much more in 2 years due to the dollar sinking. I bought a 441 for 750 a year ago. I knew it was cheap and will never be cheaper unless a used one comes by. They are 100 bucks more now. If you are selling all the wood you can the saw will pay for itself if you can cut 20% faster. I do find some nice craigslist sometimes. Of course not when I bought a new one though.

Nice post - Quality tools and equipment are better than money in the bank.

 

[EXCALIBER]

Buy whatever is going to make you happy, life is short. If your dead set on a stihl buy it already. Maybe the question that should be asked is how much fuel you really use now? Stihl says it will get 10-20 percent better fuel use, however, if you only use 15 or 20 gallons a year? At that rate it only saves 8 to 16 bucks a year. I really couldn't say how much I use each year never kept track of it. As far as the saw being easier to start, I have never had a hard time starting any good running saw. Two or three pulls and they run, maybe that is just me. Someone on here said it keeps up with the 660 Stihl he has and I just don't believe that. Then he says in the smaller stuff the m-tronic will cut faster??? Unless the smaller saw runs at a higher rpm why would it cut faster? To me there is no replacement for displacement.

A good saw to me is one that lasts for years, is reliable, easy to start, and has good power to weight ratio. Then price point versus other comparable saws from other makers. Two years ago I bought a new Dolmar 7900 because it had more power than the stihl, less weight, and half the price. To me it is one of the better buys out there is a saw. You are the only one who knows what is going to work best for you, good luck.

 

[saxman]

Buy whatever is going to make you happy, life is short. If your dead set on a stihl buy it already. Maybe the question that should be asked is how much fuel you really use now? Stihl says it will get 10-20 percent better fuel use, however, if you only use 15 or 20 gallons a year? At that rate it only saves 8 to 16 bucks a year. I really couldn't say how much I use each year never kept track of it. As far as the saw being easier to start, I have never had a hard time starting any good running saw. Two or three pulls and they run, maybe that is just me. Someone on here said it keeps up with the 660 Stihl he has and I just don't believe that. Then he says in the smaller stuff the m-tronic will cut faster??? Unless the smaller saw runs at a higher rpm why would it cut faster? To me there is no replacement for displacement.

A good saw to me is one that lasts for years, is reliable, easy to start, and has good power to weight ratio. Then price point versus other comparable saws from other makers. Two years ago I bought a new Dolmar 7900 because it had more power than the stihl, less weight, and half the price. To me it is one of the better buys out there is a saw. You are the only one who knows what is going to work best for you, good luck.

I made the statement about the 441/660 cutting speed and stand by it. I am sure there are others here that have had the same experience. The 660 wearing a 36" bar buried in oak and the 441 with a 28" in the same situation, the 660 has the edge in performance every time. The same saws in smaller wood the 441 does cut at a higher RPM so it performs as well or better, seems to make sense to me. I think I should leave it at that

Steve

 

[KiwiBro]

Nice post - Quality tools and equipment are better than money in the bank.

How do you like your Built-Rite SCP 30? Did you get the live deck with it? What about their multi-wedge system?

It looks like a nice setup.

On an average day, what sort of production can you get from it and with what sort of logs? They say between 1.5 and 2.5 cords per hour. How close does your experience match with that?

Cheers.

 

[groundup]

How do you like your Built-Rite SCP 30? Did you get the live deck with it? What about their multi-wedge system?

It looks like a nice setup.

On an average day, what sort of production can you get from it and with what sort of logs? They say between 1.5 and 2.5 cords per hour. How close does your experience match with that?

Cheers.

Whoever they are, that's probably cut only. I average 3 hours to cut and split a cord.

 

[KiwiBro]

Whoever they are, that's probably cut only. I average 3 hours to cut and split a cord.

"they" in my post above refers to Built-Rite and the claims made on their website about that processor. I don't think the claim is so extraordinary as to write it off completely although most such claims are rather optimistic, and since blackdogon57 has one I thought let's read it from a real-life user.

 

[EXCALIBER]

I made the statement about the 441/660 cutting speed and stand by it. I am sure there are others here that have had the same experience. The 660 wearing a 36" bar buried in oak and the 441 with a 28" in the same situation, the 660 has the edge in performance every time. The same saws in smaller wood the 441 does cut at a higher RPM so it performs as well or better, seems to make sense to me. I think I should leave it at that

Steve

Well except according to Stihl, the specs on the 441 C-M are 5.6hp @9,500 rpm, 2800 rpm idle, max rpm 13,500.
The Stihl 660 6.4hp @ 9,500 rpm, 2,500 idle, 13,500 max rpm.
So unless I looked up the wrong saw they should be the same speed in the small stuff with chain ect being equal. You are only gaining the 300 rpm on idle??? I could be wrong it has been known to happen before

 

[saxman]

Well except according to Stihl, the specs on the 441 C-M are 5.6hp @9,500 rpm, 2800 rpm idle, max rpm 13,500.
The Stihl 660 6.4hp @ 9,500 rpm, 2,500 idle, 13,500 max rpm.
So unless I looked up the wrong saw they should be the same speed in the small stuff with chain ect being equal. You are only gaining the 300 rpm on idle??? I could be wrong it has been known to happen before

I am just stating my observations from actually running the saws in question. I have no idea what the spec book says

Steve

 

[Currently]

Had my 441cm a couple weeks now and have no regrets laying the money down on it.

It starts well and the available torque for work is quite astonishing. Use it mainly for cutting down the trunks and the 362 for limbing. (horsepower is an imaginary number, torque on the other hand is real)

Two saws are needed due to pinched blades and productivity. Might as well make them the best you can afford.

Paying cash for the best tool one can afford is an investment for a lifetime of use. Buying a used tool can be a gamble if one does not understand what to look for.

I have never regretted paying good money for a great tool. On the other hand I have many cheap tools that have been bought and discarded or given away because they were very frustrating to use. That right there is the most expensive tool because you pay for it twice.

 

[Stihlman441]

I’m somewhat confused as to why the OP wants an M-Tronic in the first place… I mean, really… what sort of cutting conditions does he believe he’ll encounter that the M-Tronic will give him benefit? Just seems like more expense and “stuff” to break in my mind... just un-needed gadgetry slapped on a simple piece of equipment. Really, to tell the truth, I don’t understand why anyone would want an MS441 when the MS460 offers more power at the exact same weight. In my mind the 044/440/441 series wouldn’t even be an option if buying new (coming across a good deal on used is another story).

If I were in the OP’s shoes, I’d be thinking totally different… the weight of my saw(s) is the number one consideration for me. I’d take my MS310 and trade it for an MS362 with two bars… a 16 or 18 inch and a 25 inch. The end result would be a saw weighing a full pound less with a half horsepower more, and the longer bar when needed… a win/win all around.

I will tell you why the 441 CRMTronic is way BETTER better than the old school 440,460s.
If your felling and blocking for 4 to 6 hrs a day,8 to 12 tanks of fuel in a 460 you will know what im talking about.
The better points on a 441 CRMTronic
Filter system is way better
AV is way better
Less fuel and fumes
No tune allways working for you no matter what
East start system
High out put oiler for 28'' bars pluss
Comes with dual large bumper spikes and roller chain catcher
They respond well to muff modds and porting.

 

[fields_mj]

So if you muff mod and/or port one of these new saws, does it automaticaly re-tune itself for you? If not, then I don't see much benifit to the auto tune. No I don't cut every day all day for a pay check, but I do cut year round and I never have to mess with the tuning on any of my saws. If they have reasonably fresh gas in them they fire off in 3 pulls. If they have old stale gas, they may take as many as 5 or 6 pulls, but I don't consider that to be the saws fault.

I'm not convinced that the auto-tune feature is going to hold up for the next 10 or more years. I can see where it would be a big plus if you were frequently changing elevations, but for the vast majority of us it's just another "feature" that can cause us problems when it starts to go bad. A new saw shouldn't need it. The question is once it's a well used saw will it still be considered a good thing, or will it be the worse thing since the flippy cap. Nothing like trying to start/run a saw that is constantly trying to adjust itself out of tune....

Now better AV, better filter, and better fuel economy are all good things. I just don't happen to think they are worth the "new" price tag for a one man operation that's only doing $5K worth of buisness a year. That one purchase is 20% of your buisness. Not 20% of your profit, but 20% of your total buisness. That's a sizeable investment on a piece of equipment that isn't a true need. Even if it becomes the primairy saw, half the year it's going to sit on the shelf doing nothing, and the other half of the year it's going to sit on that same shelf 6 out of every 7 days. In buisness, if you invest 20% of your yearly cash flow into one piece of equipment, that piece of equipment needs to spend the majority of it's life generating income, not sitting on a shelf. If the better AV, and better fuel economy were driving my decision, I would be looking for a MS261 to replace that 310. For that mater, and for what its worth, a nice little light weight 026/260/261 would compliment that 441 nicely