Off topic whole house generator
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Just as a referance as to what is a normal generator installation should be. The transfer switch can transfer all the loads or just some of the loads. The transfer switch can be an automatic or a manual one. The grounded conductor (neutral ) does not need to be disconnected from the regular service nor does the one from the generator. Backfeeding a dryer outlet is not a good practice..........
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A properly wired transfer switch is of course the best setup for a disconnect. That said I used to backfeed through my welder plug when needed without incident. You MUST of course throw the main breaker on your service panel BEFORE connecting the unit. Then upon shut down, disconnect the cord BEFORE turning the main back on.
If you would fail to throw the main you can feed back through the lines possibly injuring a repairman. That would be very bad for the repairman and you after the power company finds you. Failure to disconnect the unit and turning the main back on after the power is back up with blow up your generator.
My current backup generator is a 6500 watt Kubota diesel. Runs my whole house. I do not have electric heat, hot water, or stove though. I never have to worry about the fuel going bad or if I have fuel as I have 2 275 gallon fuel oil tanks to draw from. Also being a diesel it is much more fuel effecient than a gas unit. Plus being a commercial quality unit it is built to run for thousands of hours meaning it should be the last generator I will ever have to buy.
If you would fail to throw the main you can feed back through the lines possibly injuring a repairman. That would be very bad for the repairman and you after the power company finds you. Failure to disconnect the unit and turning the main back on after the power is back up with blow up your generator.
My current backup generator is a 6500 watt Kubota diesel. Runs my whole house. I do not have electric heat, hot water, or stove though. I never have to worry about the fuel going bad or if I have fuel as I have 2 275 gallon fuel oil tanks to draw from. Also being a diesel it is much more fuel effecient than a gas unit. Plus being a commercial quality unit it is built to run for thousands of hours meaning it should be the last generator I will ever have to buy.
mtfallsmikey
Addicted to ArboristSite
If by chance you do wind up backfeeding the HV line, your trusty lineman working to restore power will throw a jumper across the line first to de-energize it, thereby killing your gen.
For a more detailed discussion on generator grounding/bonding, search that subject on www.mikeholt.com
That is an electrical contractor/NEC website.
I made my own little "power bar" (a couple of 110VAC and one 220VAC receptacles) in the basement, and wired my generator to that. I put my well pump on a 220VAC receptacle. When the power goes out, simply "unplug" the well and plug it in to the power bar. Then run an extension cord to the freezer/fridge, and one to a few lamps. Eliminates the possiblilty of backfeeding. Not as convenient, but cheap and easy.
Another Bucker
ArboristSite Operative
reliance control
When funds allow im moving up from the extension cords all over method, to one of these http://www.reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?31410CRK just powering it with a 5000/6500 watt surge portable genset for now.
Anyone have any experiance with these?
When funds allow im moving up from the extension cords all over method, to one of these http://www.reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?31410CRK just powering it with a 5000/6500 watt surge portable genset for now.
Anyone have any experiance with these?
sawkiller
ArboristSite Operative
Nice gen setup! I was goinig through 5 gallons a day with my gas 5kw but it was not running all the time either.
I have yet to understand the epa's actions! For instance 1992 cummins diesel averages 21 MPG in a normal pickup and a new cummins from what I am told gets around 15 but is more enviromentaly friendly with all the EPA pollution controls?
Diesel Pro
ArboristSite Guru
I would suggest Kohler over Generac any day. I have a customer (originally from Germany recently moved to US) who services this stuff. He stopped in for a visit a while back and we talked a bit about generators and his exact words were "anything but Generac"
I have not purchased my Genset yet, but I intend to do a Kohler 18kw (they just keep getting bigger and better) soon.
For panels/Transfer I used the Square D/Kohler Intelligent load center when we built our new home.
http://www.kohlerpower.com/common/pdfs/74281_ITS_SellRevise.pdf
As a diesel guy I should do a diesel Genset right? Not quite. A genset needs to stand for weeks, months, years between operation cycles. Yes there are excercise cycles, but they do not consume large amounts of fuel. I don't want to deal with diesel fuel or gasoline getting stale. Propane will keep indefinitely.
I have not purchased my Genset yet, but I intend to do a Kohler 18kw (they just keep getting bigger and better) soon.
For panels/Transfer I used the Square D/Kohler Intelligent load center when we built our new home.
http://www.kohlerpower.com/common/pdfs/74281_ITS_SellRevise.pdf
As a diesel guy I should do a diesel Genset right? Not quite. A genset needs to stand for weeks, months, years between operation cycles. Yes there are excercise cycles, but they do not consume large amounts of fuel. I don't want to deal with diesel fuel or gasoline getting stale. Propane will keep indefinitely.
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giXXer
ArboristSite Operative
Over the last week and a half we have lost power 3 times. Once for 4 days and this morning it went out again. I decided last week, after much shopping for a whole house stand-by generator, that it just wasn't currently in the budget. Since I am completely tired of running a 2400 watt Craftsman that needs fuel every 2 hours and running extension cords through the house to still not have showers, laundry, furnace, OWB, etc. I had a transfer switch with a NEMA 1430 plug installed and purchased a 6800 watt with the same 30 amp outlet on it. Now I just throw the main switch in the 200 amp panel, turn the generator breaker to the on position, roll the generator to it's designated spot, and plug it in. It runs everything in the house, just not EVERYTHING at once. If we consume conservatively, considering the stove, well pump, furnace blower motor or central A/C, hair dryer, and coffee pot (we just don't run all of them at once) all consume a considerable amount of juice, we never even notice the power is out.
The generator we have (gasoline, Rigid brand) does consume a little bit of fuel. One thing that is nice though, it runs for 12 hours before needing fuel and holds about 6 gallons. Now that I have a wife, baby, and hectic schedule, the $1.50 per hour is worth it!
The generator we have (gasoline, Rigid brand) does consume a little bit of fuel. One thing that is nice though, it runs for 12 hours before needing fuel and holds about 6 gallons. Now that I have a wife, baby, and hectic schedule, the $1.50 per hour is worth it!
RacerX
Addicted to ArboristSite
There's quite a bit of confusion and misinformation regarding generators, grounding and transfer switches in this thread. For one a generator can be set up as a separately derived system where is the transfer switch will disconnect the grounded conductor (neutral) from the system. If it doesn't disconnect the grounded conductor it is not called a separately derived system. Either installation (switched neutral or non-switched neutral) is acceptable and which one that you choose it's really a design issue. Even with a switched neutral all of the components of the system would remain bonded together whether or not you were on grid power or generator power.
Also the 2008 NEC requires that a generator setup with an automatic transfer switch must be sized for the entire connected load unless you have an automatic load shedding device. This prohibits you from manually switching off individual loads with a circuit breaker to keep the generator from being overloaded.
Lot's of good information there but you'll need to be in the electrical field to post there. You can always browse through old threads.
Also the 2008 NEC requires that a generator setup with an automatic transfer switch must be sized for the entire connected load unless you have an automatic load shedding device. This prohibits you from manually switching off individual loads with a circuit breaker to keep the generator from being overloaded.
Lot's of good information there but you'll need to be in the electrical field to post there. You can always browse through old threads.
harrybeaver
ArboristSite Operative
I would try and figure in how often you lose your power and how much power you need, then weigh that against the system cost. My power only goes out about once a year and only briefly however I do live in the Northeast so we do get some bad weather and my house has a well so if we do lose power we don't have any running water. The cheapest way to get whole house power is the interlock kits that are available from many panel makers, mine is a GE gold mark and costs $35. They are UL listed and reserve the top right breaker for the generator. They will not allow the main breaker to be on at the same time as the generator. Some like automatic transfer switches but I didn't get that because of cost. Also I know someone who had that in an area with lots of brown outs, the transfer switch would chatter in a brown out and wore out from the chattering.
Mine is gasoline powered. I would have loved a diesel but couldn't justify the cost. The gas supply issue is largely resolved by using two boat style 6 gallon gas cans and putting a boat style fuel fiitting onto the generator engine. These fittings allow for qickly changing from one fuel tank to the other. Fill em up in the fall and if it is still around in the spring we burn it up in our boat, the boat burns that up in less than an hour but will last all day in the generator. I agree allow the thing the night off and keep your fridge/freezer shut.
This set up works for me. The 6750 surge 5500 continuous watt generator cost ~500 the transfer interlock ~35 and the conduit and wiring from our shed to the house ~100. The biggest draw back is if we are not home we won't have power and risk losing our food and freezing pipes but that is a risk I can accept.
Mine is gasoline powered. I would have loved a diesel but couldn't justify the cost. The gas supply issue is largely resolved by using two boat style 6 gallon gas cans and putting a boat style fuel fiitting onto the generator engine. These fittings allow for qickly changing from one fuel tank to the other. Fill em up in the fall and if it is still around in the spring we burn it up in our boat, the boat burns that up in less than an hour but will last all day in the generator. I agree allow the thing the night off and keep your fridge/freezer shut.
This set up works for me. The 6750 surge 5500 continuous watt generator cost ~500 the transfer interlock ~35 and the conduit and wiring from our shed to the house ~100. The biggest draw back is if we are not home we won't have power and risk losing our food and freezing pipes but that is a risk I can accept.
Mr. Firewood
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I have a Lister-Petter 6hp with a belt drive 4 pole 3kw head and it works fine, uses a little more fuel then I like but such is life, about a quart a hour running the freezer, tv, a few lights and the sump pump
Labman
ArboristSite Guru
Interlock user here, http://www.interlockkit.com/intro2.htm
If you have a Square D box, you may be able to pick up one of theirs for less.
I have a Coleman 6250. It can easily handle anything in the house that I need. I have installed, but not adjusted a natural gas conversion kit, http://www.propanecarbs.com/naturalgaskits.html
One of the biggest problems with gasoline is that it dries up and gums up the carb.
Unless you have a big tank, you will need to be running in town for fuel. In a major outage, the gas station may not have power. In a blizzard, you may not be able to get to town.
Note, I am not the safety police either, but a double male cord leaves you subject to more risk than I am going to take.
While I can't use everything, my set up allows me to use anything I choose. I think I beat out that stupid NEC requirement on the generator being able to handle the whole house. What a stupid idea.
Note! I have heard a lot of problems with generators and furnaces. My works fine. But I have a proper 4 wire connection to the generator and 3 wire to the furnace. Cut corners and the furnace may not work. In frigid weather, it is the very most important.
If you have a Square D box, you may be able to pick up one of theirs for less.
I have a Coleman 6250. It can easily handle anything in the house that I need. I have installed, but not adjusted a natural gas conversion kit, http://www.propanecarbs.com/naturalgaskits.html
One of the biggest problems with gasoline is that it dries up and gums up the carb.
Unless you have a big tank, you will need to be running in town for fuel. In a major outage, the gas station may not have power. In a blizzard, you may not be able to get to town.
Note, I am not the safety police either, but a double male cord leaves you subject to more risk than I am going to take.
While I can't use everything, my set up allows me to use anything I choose. I think I beat out that stupid NEC requirement on the generator being able to handle the whole house. What a stupid idea.
Note! I have heard a lot of problems with generators and furnaces. My works fine. But I have a proper 4 wire connection to the generator and 3 wire to the furnace. Cut corners and the furnace may not work. In frigid weather, it is the very most important.
harrybeaver
ArboristSite Operative
"One of the biggest problems with gasoline is that it dries up and gums up the carb."
I would definately recomend using stabil and shutting the fuel valve when done using the generator and letting it die out by fuel starvation ensuring little or no fuel is left in the carb.
I would definately recomend using stabil and shutting the fuel valve when done using the generator and letting it die out by fuel starvation ensuring little or no fuel is left in the carb.
mtfallsmikey
Addicted to ArboristSite
I forgot to mention about Mike Holt's website...if you register, and ask DIY questions, you will get booted off...lotsa other good websites for that purpose.
RacerX
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deutzman
ArboristSite Operative
On another site I posted what you wrote in this thread. It started a war.
You are the first that I've seen post this information and I agree with you. Thank you for posting this. After I got blasted on that site I just sit back and read this one but had to give you a pat on the back for what you wrote. Confusion and misinformation cause a lot of folks to spend a lot of $$$$$$. I've tested hookups both ways and the VOM meter don't lie.Thank you again.
RacerX
Addicted to ArboristSite
On another site I posted what you wrote in this thread. It started a war.
Thank you again.
No problem.
I just saw some misinformation and wanted to point it out. I try to keep with the simple facts and not opinions when it comes to commenting on electrical work. For the record I've been doing it for 25 years. If those guys in that other place don't agree let them post some proof showing that what I said was incorrect. I'm curious as to what they had to say.
Generators are a touchy subject to some maybe because they don't understand the inherent dangers of a bootleg system.
mtfallsmikey
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yah. I'm a licensed electrician too, but am really an "Electrically related individual" now...
I just saw some misinformation and wanted to point it out. I try to keep with the simple facts and not opinions when it comes to commenting on electrical work. For the record I've been doing it for 25 years. If those guys in that other place don't agree let them post some proof showing that what I said was incorrect. I'm curious as to what they had to say.
Generators are a touchy subject to some maybe because they don't understand the inherent dangers of a bootleg system.[/QUOTE]
True. And the NEC, which is so easy to understand, can be confusing on the issue of grounding/bonding a generator....similar confusion, wailing,gnashing of teeth happens even when the subject of installing a subpanel in a garage comes up, with mucho disinformation on some of the various DIY websites.
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