Oh boy, this ain't good, MS441

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thomas1 said:
Mark,

Sorry if I missed it, but what brand were the kits or was there even a brand?
Click to expand...

Naw no brand, just a generic white box that said 441 piston and cyl or something like that.

Kinda reminds me of like when they used to sell generic beer. You old enough to remember that? Just a plain white can and in black letters it said "beer".

The only difference is the generic beer was actually Fallstaff and was decent, these cyls not so much decent. :hmm3grin2orange:
 
Modifiedmark said:
Naw no brand, just a generic white box that said 441 piston and cyl or something like that.

Kinda reminds me of like when they used to sell generic beer. You old enough to remember that? Just a plain white can and in black letters it said "beer".

The only difference is the generic beer was actually Fallstaff and was decent, these cyls not so much decent. :hmm3grin2orange:
Click to expand...

I'll take your word for it. :D
 
Modifiedmark said:
Kinda reminds me of like when they used to sell generic beer. You old enough to remember that? Just a plain white can and in black letters it said "beer".
Click to expand...

Not old enough to have witnessed the white cans but I do remember the "Eagle" brand sold at the local grocer. Stated no brewery just bottle for so and so. Awe the good ole days of begging the early grads to buy beer. :givebeer:
 
Modifiedmark said:
Naw no brand, just a generic white box that said 441 piston and cyl or something like that.

Kinda reminds me of like when they used to sell generic beer. You old enough to remember that? Just a plain white can and in black letters it said "beer".

The only difference is the generic beer was actually Fallstaff and was decent, these cyls not so much decent. :hmm3grin2orange:
Click to expand...

My old man drank the generic beer in the brown stubbies. I was about 8 or 9 and I swiped a bottle from him one time. It wasn't so bad.
 
I remember when I was in college, I moved back home for a while. Came home one night and my dad had found my six pack of St. Pauli girl beer I had for the weekend, I fussed a bit, he said he would get another 6 for me the next day.

That next night he had in the fridge a six pack of Kroger Cost Cutter beer, all it said was Beer
and the Kroger scissors on it in a bright yellow can, he thought that it was real funny, of course
he liked Schlitz and Weidiman....
 
What could possibly be wrong with the bottom end, intake, or fuel system that would cause the top end to catch a ring in the exhaust port? I've seen quite a few scored pistons, seized rings etc due to straight gas, lean carb, air leaks, excessive cylinder temps etc. but I've never seen an OEM p/c kit ever snag a ring in the exhaust port. IOW if you paid me to do something to the bottom end to make the top end snag a ring I wouldn't know where to begin. If the rest of the saw can't make the top end snag a ring, then you're left with the top end itself. I just don't see how this could be anything other than a defective p/c kit. Since all the kits are made the same it should be no surprise that two failed back to back. Every one of them should fail.

PS- Another possibility that I haven't seen mentioned is excessive clearance between the piston and cylinder. That would allow the rings to stick out further to make a seal with the cylinder wall, making them more likely to catch in a port. Also the piston rocking back and forth in the cylinder will put increased stress on the rings which could cause them to break and catch in a port. My quick and dirty clearance test is to TAKE THE RINGS OFF THE PISTON, wipe down the p and c to remove all oil, then drop the p into the c, place thumb over the spark plug hole and turn the c upside down. If clearance is good the p will hold a vacuum and not move. If the piston falls out you've got problems.
 
Last edited:
ol'homey said:
What could possibly be wrong with the bottom end, intake, or fuel system that would cause the top end to catch a ring in the exhaust port? I've seen quite a few scored pistons, seized rings etc due to straight gas, lean carb, air leaks, excessive cylinder temps etc. but I've never seen an OEM p/c kit ever snag a ring in the exhaust port. IOW if you paid me to do something to the bottom end to make the top end snag a ring I wouldn't know where to begin. If the rest of the saw can't make the top end snag a ring, then you're left with the top end itself. I just don't see how this could be anything other than a defective p/c kit. Since all the kits are made the same it should be no surprise that two failed back to back. Every one of them should fail.

PS- Another possibility that I haven't seen mentioned is excessive clearance between the piston and cylinder. That would allow the rings to stick out further to make a seal with the cylinder wall, making them more likely to catch in a port. Also the piston rocking back and forth in the cylinder will put increased stress on the rings which could cause them to break and catch in a port. My quick and dirty clearance test is to TAKE THE RINGS OFF THE PISTON, wipe down the p and c to remove all oil, then drop the p into the c, place thumb over the spark plug hole and turn the c upside down. If clearance is good the p will hold a vacuum and not move. If the piston falls out you've got problems.
Click to expand...

Sing it brother!!! :laugh:
 
I guess I'm probably shortsighted because I tried a few different af pistons and p&c combos early on and got burnt. This was probably 8 or so years ago that I personally used them when AIP and Golf were the only options. Back when i was rebuilding 024's, there wasn't many if any options to buy a piston so I tried golf pistons. In order to get them to fit the width of the small end of the connecting rod I would need to install a grinding wheel on my dremel after I stuffed the shaft of the dremel in the wristpin hole, and I would try to so call methodically (lol) grind away at each side until it fit.

However, I did recommend some BB kits to some people I know, and they got burnt also. I personally tried an early 046 bb kit and it launched within the first 30 seconds. I sent another 372 bb kit to a buddy who ports saws. He put a popup piston on it and logged with it about 60 hours before the top of the piston ended up crumbling. He ended up sending the cylinder to US chrome and had it renikasilled and it has worked great since.

Now on the other hand, I have had personally great luck with Meteor pistons and caber rings.

Like I say most of my AF experience is pretty outdated, but I still seem to see the same quality control problems today that occurred 8-10 years ago. I personally see no reason to not buy a good used cylinder and buy a meteor piston vs going the AF market route.

To each their own, but that is my personal opinion.
 

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