Outdoor wood stoves

[bwalker]

Have any of you guys cruised the central boiler website lately? They are now offering a stainless model. I really like the firebox design of the CB. It seems like it would be more efficiant than the heatmor

 

[Bill G]

I just found this thread tonight. To be honest this is the first time I have went to the off topic forum. The one thing I cannot believe is why someone has not mention the Hardy wood burning furnace. I want to make it clear that i do not have one nor do I sell them but I think they would be my choice for a first furnace. As far as I know it was the first outdoor furnace designed. I know Central Boiler claims to have been around a long time but I will assure you in my area of the Midwest Hardy has been around the longest. You guys have mention rusting ? The Hardy is completely stainless. It will not rust. They had a few problems with leaking welds. All of those units were replaced. The biggest disadvantage is that they are much samller in size than others. They will need to be fired twice a day. In my opinion I find it hard to believe that you can fuel some of these units every other day. The thought of actually putting wood in a furnace with a forktruck scares the hell out of me. That is one og the most dangerous things I can think of. The huge advantage of the Hardy is cost. They can be purchased for about $2500 compared to $5000-$50,000 for others. I can get more info if anyone wants it. Once again I do not own one and have no experience with them. My opinions are based on observations. I sincerely appreciate all the posts from personal experience.

Bill

 

[Bill G]

I just thought of some experiences ome of you may me interested in. Two years ago I stopped into a fireplace shop and priced a wood stove. He priced it to me at $500-$600 out the door. I bought the same stove for $250 from another store. I stopped back into the same store this fall. He priced me a $450 stove at $1500. That was the stove installed with 12 ft of stainless pipe. Now I am not opposed to a business making money but this is obscene. He installed a fireplace insert and liner in my neighbors one story house at a cost of $2600. The insert could have been bought for $500 and the liner for $200. I would have installed it for nothing. (he has a keg tapped in his garage for afterwards). This same dealer is selling mantels for $500-$700 that we have built and installed for $250-$350. It is unbelievable. My point of this post is not to slam dealers. they have to make money just like all of us. The point is you really need to look around at all the options. I like the quality of the Hardy stove but I also think there is some real benefits of the higher priced units.

just my rambling thoughts

Bill

 

[WRW]

I've got a Hardy. Unless the temperatures don't get out of the teens I can get by with one filling a day...2,200 sq. ft. house. I've been happy with it.

 

[django]

Hi All, As to the Hardy, Around here we call them Hardly's 'cause their hardly worth having. The silly things are made in Mississippi for pete's sake. How cold does it get in Mississippi?? They look like a giant refrigerator setting in your yard. I personally know of several in my neck of the woods and wouldn't have one because: They are wood hogs. They dont' seem to get the heat out of them as well as some others, Their domestic hot water coil is OUT AT THE STOVE. They smoke like you wouldn't believe. They are the cheesiest made stove I have ever seen. Now, they are reasonably priced and Heatmor etc... are big bucks, thats why I made my own. If you want a Hardy, go for it, I just don't think their very good stoves. As to Central Boiler's firebx design, It's O.K., more of a gimick than anything.Lots of places for corrosion to happen. "Efficient" is a somewhat dubious term when describing these stoves. Remember, there are many grades of Stainless, and many of them still corrode.

 

[WRW]

OK, django, I'm stumped. Since the source of heat is out at the stove, where should the domestic hot water coil be?

 

[django]

Most ,if not all, other outdoor waterstoves use either a "sidearm" waterheater ( which is what I use) or a plate style exchanger (better yet) or a shell and tube exchanger ( big bux) in the house. That way your domestic line doesn't run out to the stove and back. Hardy is the only one I know that does this, and last I heard, were getting away from it.

 

[bwalker]

Django, Since you seem to have researched all the brands out there. Which one do you think is best? I really like the heatmor, but he classic is nice as well.

 

[django]

Well BW, I patterned mine after a Pacific Western. They are made in Canada, a lot of people never heard of them. and I liked their design. But they're pricey.
However I was very impressed with Aquatherm. Very Professional people and a very good stove. The Central Boiler is not high on my list especially Natural Draft models. Their warranty leaves something to be desired also. I prefer powered draft for several reasons. You can do what you want, but as for me I overwhelmingly prefer round stoves. The design is as old as dirt for a reason, it works. My bro. in law has a Heatmore, seems like a nice unit. $6000. Thats a lot of cash for what you get. I guess if I made a recomendation it would be Aquatherm, really super everytime I spoke with them and the stove is excellent. One I was intrigued with but didn't investigate very far was Johnson stoves. One word of caution: Don't believe ridiculous claims about burn times and efficiencies. If they say their stove will heat 6000 sq. ft. figure about 3000 real world. ( at a 12 hr. burn time) Happy hunting, there is a bunch of them out there.

 

[WRW]

django,
The only coil on the Hardy, to my knowledge, is the potable water coil. I thought that was what you meant by "domestic".
Now if you are speaking of the water for heat, it is circulated but what would the option to that be? The only domestic connection is the fill pipe and that water is not circulated back into the household water supply.

 

[django]

Bill, That's exactly what I meant. The exchangers I spoke of are for your household hot water. "domestic" and "potable" are interchangable terms. If you dont believe me, check out Hardy's website.

 

[Bill G]

django,

I am wondering why you think that because the Hardy is made in Mississippi that they do not know how to build them. I would believe the reason the are located there is because that where the owners are located. There is a huge variance in wages between areas and generally wages are lower in the south. You must also consider the availability of materials. The transportation system may be excellent allowing them to cut costs and pass on the savings to the customer. Once again I am not sold on the Hardy I am just pointing them out as an option. I looked at a operating Heatmoor today. The former owner of the house had installed one and it rusted out to the point to which it was scrapped. He sold the house and the new owner installed a new Heatmoor. I would have thought after the earlier bad experience the former owner would never buy one again. As i drove by his other place I noticed he had another heatmoor in his yard.

Bill

 

[django]

True, they could be made in Singapore, ( not a bad idea, really)
and be good stoves. I know of several around me, and they just don't get good reviews. They are the Yugo of woodstoves. If you like it, buy it. I just don't recommend them. Ask Jokers or some of the other guys that have the outdoor burners, if they looked at them, what their opinion of them is, maybe I have a skewed impression. I like the fact that they are 304 stainless, and comparably inexpensive, they just seem to use a huge amount of wood and smoke big time. and to my eye, they are as ugly as a mud fence. There is a fellow that I know that has a house smaller than mine and better insulated, who has a Hardy he just bought this winter. It is the larger model, and he has to fill it 3 times a day to keep the house at 72 degrees. The wood is hardwood and moderately seasoned. I fill mine 2 times a day, keep the house at 76, and always have good coals for the next charge. This could be an insulation issue, I insulated the heck out of mine when I built it. Hardy's don't have much insulation in them, and no place to add more. ( unless you cover the ugly thing up with it) The other guys I know that have Heatmor's( well insulated) don't seem to use an inordinate amount of wood, and they only smoke heavy during startup. There are so many variables to take into account, that perhaps apples aren't being compared to apples, but the concensus around these parts of the "serious" woodburners is stay away from the Hardy. You want one, buy one, don't say I didn't warn you. As to the Heatmor rusting out, It was probably a mild steel stove that wasn't cared for, probably replaced with a stainless model. There is significant maintainence to these that usually does not get performed, in my opinion, that is why there is such a strong move to "stainless" stoves. A Hardy shouldn't rust for avery long time , I'll give them that. They do seem to have a problem with the doors warping, though. Simply put, they are the cheapest stove out there in more ways than one. Ask around.

 

[bwalker]

steel

After doing a bit of research it looks as if pacific western, heatmore and aquatherm use 400 series stainless steel. This is the same stuff used in the auto industry to get a vehicles exhaust to barely last 100,000 miles. non of these stoves will be impervious to corrosion that use this steel.

BTW From the looks of things I am going with a aqua-therm. the only question I have is how well there inclosure is insulated as i havent seen one in person?

 

[django]

Hey Ben,
I think Aquatherm is a good choice. Their "enclosure" I believe is a shed that goes "around" the stove as opposed to those that are a "permanent" type mounted to the stove. If memory serves, it adds $1000 to the cost. When I was eyeballing them I had planned to build my own enclosure around it and insulate it myself. This is an option most companies don't offer. This is a cost effective way to get exactly what you want.
Pacific Western uses a pretty good grade of 400 series stainless that has been alloyed with columbium, I never could get them to give me an actual allloy number, but their warranty is 20 YEARS
against rust-through. Twice what anybody else at the time offered. Now, as Chris Farley said in "Tommy-Boy" " "You want a gaurantee? I can take a crap in a box and mark it "guaranteed" but at the end of the day, all I've sold you is a guaranteed piece of sh*t." So you never know. But I have heard good things about their stoves. Not trying to change your mind. Aquatherm is a good stove but it is a pressurized system, and I don't really know the pro's and cons of that. But like I said before, they really came across as an excellent company with a great product.
Steve

 

[Bill G]

Once again Iam not defending the Hardy. I am not totally sold on them myself. I do however like to point out misconceptions. You speak of doors warping. I believe you are actually referring to the firebox cracking at the door. This may have caused the door to warp. This was a problem and Hardy came into the field and fixed them free of charge. They fixed units that were over 20yrs old. This did not happen with the other brands that developed problems. I have an open mind to all barnds including designing and building one myself. They proper may to build it is to find as many of the weaknesses of all the brands and avoid them. I am really puzzled by the fact that you talk about the amount of wood they "eat". They do have a much smaller firebox thus requiring you to fill it much more often. I did discover a few problems this weekend that really disturbed me about them. The local dealer that has been selling them for many years will not install them. I asked why and he said because he did not want to deal with the liability. I told him that I thought if he was a viable dealer than the company should have trained him in installation. they also should be insuring him. When I checked around guess what the Central Bioler and Heatmoor dealers also do not install them. The other problem I found is that up until a couple years ago the local dealer was heating his domesitic hot water with a electric hot water heater. This really made me lose confidence in them

Bill

 

[django]

When I say the doors warp, I mean the doors warp. And I'm not talking 20 yr. old stoves either. Does it matter why? Not to me. A warped door for any reason is a runaway stove. Bad News. Have I seen this personally? No. Have I heard of this happening more than once? Yes. I guess I would expound on the "proper" way to build one, after I actually built one. (which I did, and I still don't feel like an "expert" although I looked at over 20 different models to decide which one(s) I liked) Is mine the end-all superstove adiabatic wonder of the world? No. But it works like I hoped it would. Could my 120lb steel door warp? Of course, but it ain't likely. . .This system of heating is by nature is inefficient.It ain't rocket science, but it does take time and homework. And about 2200lbs of steel.
You don't understand how one woodstove can use more wood to heat a given space than another? That one system can be more efficient than another? Sure you do. As to the firebox size, on a Hardy, did you know you can get pretty much whatever size you want ? Hardy has something like 5 or 6 models one with a firebox of 34x42x52. Thats plenty big. That's darn near huge. Have you seen more than one size or model of Hardy? Or a Hardy brochure? It doesn't sound like it. Every dealer of every brand ( Heatmor, Hardy Central etc...) around here is an installer and all the ones I talked to WANTED to install the unit, there is money to be made. I am not sure why your neck of the woods is different, that is peculiar. As to the hot water, with my sidearm exchanger, and tempering valve, I get all the hot water anyone could want. A plate exchanger is even better. I'm pretty much done talking about Hardy's now. Like I said, you want one? Buy one. It's your money. Best of luck to you. It sounds to me like your trying to talk yourself into one. They sure seem like a good deal at first glance, at least I thought so, until I asked around. If you don't know any different, you'll probably be happy. And isn't that all that matters when one parts with the cash?

 

[bwalker]

Django, Thats disturbing news about the aqua-therm not coming with a good enclosure. I do not really want build one as that would bring cost up too much. Looks like it back to pacific western or heatmore.

 

[django]

Bill,
I can look at my library of brochures to see if that is for sure but I am almost positive that is the case. I wouldn't say it isn't a "good" enclosure, it may be great, but it was an add-on last time I checked. Also, I think the aqua-therm uses an ash auger to remove ashes and that is a pro's/cons issue also. Did you investigate Johnson Stoves?

 

[bwalker]

Nope, I never looked at Johnson as I could never find a net address for them. To bad somebody doesnt do a comsumer reports type outdoor woodburner shootout.