OWB vs. Add-on Wood Furnace

[colson04]

After moving into this house at the end of last years heating season, we didn't get struck hard with any propane charges. This year being our first full winter here, I'm already not happy. I had thought about wood last summer, but never did anything since I didn't think the sting of buying propane would bother me this much.

That said, I will have wood heat for next winter, though I am not sure exactly which route I will take. Currently, house is 2500 sq. ft total (1st floor + basement), very well insulated, and tight, and I have propane forced air heat and propane hot water heater.

I am considering either building a chimney, tieing into exisitng duct work and installing an Englander 28-3500 Add-on wood furnace, or installing an OWB that can heat the house and the hot water. Getting wood is not an issue, plenty of it available and I've already got seasoned hard wood that could be used on an indoor furnace for next year if I go that route. I can do the install of either option myself, plus build a chimney on the house if I do the indoor furnace. I have a walk-out basement and the furnace would be placed near the service door for easy handling of wood.

Lots of pro's/con's to both systems, and the cost of the OWB install (~$7500) is definitely higher than that of the Add-on furnace install (~$2500), but I'm not sold that cost is the only factor to consider. Wife is on-board with either system, she likes heating with wood. She grew up with a wood stove in the living room so she's fine with burning wood and tending a fire, just not sure which route we should go.

Here's the $10,000 question: If you were in my shoes, which system would you install, and why? (Englander Furnace or an OWB?)

 

[avason]

Welcome aboard. I've had my owb for about 6 years now. I love the fact that I haven't had to pay for heat since I moved into my house. I don't know about the add on but I can tell you plenty about my owb. The first thing I'll tell you is that yes it is nice burning all kinds of wood, but you burn a hell of a lot of wood. There is no doubt that the thing has paid for itself two fold since I've lived in my house. I would look into how much time and commitment you can afford if you do get an owb. Keep us posted and good luck!

 

[Uncle John]

Welcome aboard. I've had my owb for about 6 years now. I love the fact that I haven't had to pay for heat since I moved into my house. I don't know about the add on but I can tell you plenty about my owb. The first thing I'll tell you is that yes it is nice burning all kinds of wood, but you burn a hell of a lot of wood. There is no doubt that the thing has paid for itself two fold since I've lived in my house. I would look into how much time and commitment you can afford if you do get an owb. Keep us posted and good luck!

Ditto.

And You gotta go out and load it no matter the weather

Lotta wood, lotta wood.

But you keep the mess outside.

Welcome to AS...............:msp_biggrin:

 

[beerman6]

another michigander!

check your local laws concerning OWBs

 

[beerman6]

:msp_angry: joined 2012...

 

[memory]

If you can afford it, I would go for the OWB for a few reasons. One, you keep the mess outside. Don't have to worry about bringing bugs into the house. Two, it is much easier to clean out as well. Three, depending on the size of the OWB, you can load it once a day instead of having to put wood in an add-on every couple of hours. Four, you might want to check with your insurance and make sure they allow an indoor stove. If so, it might raise your rates up. Five, an OWB will easily pay for itself in a few years especially if you heat water too. Heating the water makes a big difference on the electric bill. For us, just one water heater hooked up to the OWB saves almost $100 a month. We also have to heat the water to 170 degrees. We have to water heaters hooked up to the OWB.

There are some drawbacks to an OWB of course. First is the cost. The stove is the biggest expense but the underground piping is not cheap either. And you don't want to go the cheap route on that part of it. We did and we are paying for it. Second is it requires electricity to run. No electric, no heat. Where as with an indoor stove, you can still at least heat the house. Third, an OWB will probably use more wood too.

We have used both and we prefer the OWB. IMO, the OWB is worth it in the long run.

 

[colson04]

I'm pretty familiar with both set-ups, my grandfather heats the house on his farmstead with an old Add-on furnace, and he heats his personal house with a Central Boiler OWB. Both of his use 7-12 cord a year depending on how bad the winter is (old house vs. new house). I grew up with a wood stove, so did my wife. i could go either way right now, same with me wife, about which system to use.

My grandfather is pushing the OWB side, my dad says to go with add-on furnace.

With the OWB, I could also heat my hot water and save more propane there, but I don't know if the cost is worth it. Going outside to load it doesn't bother me, I'm always outside working on something, even in the cold winter.

Oh, and yes, I did join in Jan 2012 when I was reading threads about saws. I used this forum to make a decision when purchasing a bigger saw. Just been lurking around since...:msp_biggrin:

 

[colson04]

Four, you might want to check with your insurance and make sure they allow an indoor stove. If so, it might raise your rates up.

I did call my insurance agent yesterday and he looked into my insurance options. My current provider (cheapest premiums with best coverage) raises my annual premium $100 whether I use an add-on wood furnace or an OWB. Even with the extra $100/year added on in insurance costs, it would still be cheaper than paying for propane.

 

[PLAYINWOOD]

I have a little larger house than you 2800 total, built 16 years ago,R60 in the attic and R24 walls, and have a Newmac add-on. This part of Canada is warmer than you but this year I may burn 3 cubic cords, 4 cords if it the wildest winter ever.I burn 2 year hard maple,beech red oak and Ironwood but in Fall Spring any kind of junk that falls on th farm.

My outdoor stove neighbors are 7 cords easy, but they burn green wood and dont have to split it vey much and the ashes are outside and the house less dusty, but they do have to go out side in that roaring blizzard to reload twice daily.

I keep my wood stacked in my attached garage, nand just grab armloads as I need them, no bugs in the house or ice and snow on my wood, the odd mosquito flying around though.

I see you can get inside "boiler" if domestic hotwater is a goal but for 7000 extra dollars and wife is willing to load and dosen't mind the "mess" do you know how many toys that will buy?

I did purchase a drywall dust type bag for my shop vac ad it cleans up ash dust perfectly.

Just some thoughts

http://yaunco.com/featprods/newmac/yc_wao-gao.php

 

[jh35]

My insurance just dropped $46 because I removed the add on.

That said, I had a US stove from Farm Fleet (is that comparable to the hotblast?) (anyway with the two 8" openings on top and 6" stovepipe out the back) from 2000-2012. It served me fine but I grew tired of frequent re-lighting it in the evening when I got home and not being able to control it real well.

Also, even though my chimney was in good shape and relatively clean I always worried about a fire in the house when gone.

Last summer I found a used Heatmor on craigs and bought it that night. I wish I would have done it a long time ago. No wood or smoke or mess in the house--wife likes that but it didn't bother me.

NO PROPANE BILL! From 2000-2005 I did not have a backup and used .5 gallon propane per day for DHW. Probably more now that my daughter is 13.

I'm not completely sold on burning year round so I may have a few months of propane for the DHW but I'm really happy with it right now.

My costs:

$3800 used unit--came with HX and two pumps--new one was summer special around $7k in southern MI
$1000 Thermopex line
$250 pex and fittings for inside the house
$90-ish side arm for hot water
$100 for water treatment from dealer
$50--sheet metal help from neighbor.

All install was done by me with help from family.

I've been to Delton, ironically it was related to the OWB install.

I borrowed a neighbor's trenching skid steer attachment and had to get the hyd motor looked at in Delton at a Hyd. shop. Good guys there.

O yeah , add the cost of that to the total.

Cheers,
Jeff

Edit: Add a 100' of underground rated wire--I forgot.

 

[oppermancjo]

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:

I'll be following closely as I'm in a similar situation. Whole house including basement is closer to 2000 ft sq and I also have a walk out basement. I have an insert upstairs which we are currently heating with. It keeps up ok but the house temp rarely makes it above 70 degrees and we have the spare rooms closed off. The house is set up with hot water propane heat so the OWB would be simple enough to tie in. I like the idea of an add-on though as I would have to run duct work and then I could put in central air. House currently has no A/C except for the window unit in the bedroom.

I have access to all the wood I want/need so supply isn't a concern. I like the idea of not having to split down for the OWB but it is nice to be able to just load up the attached garage every couple weeks and then just bring a bag or two in as needed. The basement isn't finished either so I could easily make a rack to hold 1/3 cord or so down there and the wife wouldn't mind. There is already a chimney with 2 flues. One for upstairs and one for the basement. The wife grew up with wood heat too and her only complaint is that the dog chews on the splits that I bring inside and makes a mess.

I've really been leaning toward the Add-on option. The other plus for me is I probably have $1000 or so in scrap copper if I tear out the existing hot water heat. I'd still want a backup so I would probably try to pick up a used propane forced air furnace in the event that we leave town for a spell. Now that I think of it, dad has an old fuel oil furnace sitting in the barn that I could probably convert to propane if I wanted to...

 

[colson04]

I borrowed a neighbor's trenching skid steer attachment and had to get the hyd motor looked at in Delton at a Hyd. shop. Good guys there.

Ahh, took your motor to LJ's Fluid Power, behind the Flower Shop? My dad built that Flower Shop about 10 years ago. LJ's does really good work, used them quite a bit. Delton is a nice town, I've lived all over the states and yet I found myself moving back here a lil' over a year ago.

Back to the discussion, I really like the idea of the OWB, set-up would be easier (more expensive though), and could get away with burning un-seasoned wood in it. The add-on would be darn convenient with my unfinished, walk-out basement, but then I have to build a chimney. Not that I can't do it, just another hassle to consider. Though I think a nice stone or brick chimney would add to the value of my house, at least to me it would.

 

[brenndatomu]

Well, since it's been mainly the OWB guys responding here, I'll chime in. I'm familiar with both systems, I have whole house wood furnace, my dad and brother use a OWB. I'm sticking with my IWB all the way! Now, if I had money to throw around, I would consider a indoor wood boiler, or if I was really rollin in it, I'd say heck with the wood and go with gas fired boiler. (don't ban me please )

 

[jh35]

Ahh, took your motor to LJ's Fluid Power, behind the Flower Shop? My dad built that Flower Shop about 10 years ago. LJ's does really good work, used them quite a bit. Delton is a nice town, I've lived all over the states and yet I found myself moving back here a lil' over a year ago.

Back to the discussion, I really like the idea of the OWB, set-up would be easier (more expensive though), and could get away with burning un-seasoned wood in it. The add-on would be darn convenient with my unfinished, walk-out basement, but then I have to build a chimney. Not that I can't do it, just another hassle to consider. Though I think a nice stone or brick chimney would add to the value of my house, at least to me it would.

Yes it was LJ. I expected to drop it off and get called a few days later. They tore it apart and fixed it while I watched. Pretty awesome.

Yeah everybodies situation is different, the OWB is great for me but its not for everyone. I'm just sharing my experience.

I have burned some green wood with no issues although I'm not making a habit out of it..

In 2007 we removed and installed the block walls in my basement because they were done poorly the first time. Anyway the chimney had to come down. It was about $1400 for a new block one (hired done, I'm no mason.)

 

[greendohn]

As others have mentioned, An OWB eats a lot of fire wood.
Yeah, yeah, sure an OWB keeps the mess and bugs out of doors and that's certainly an attribute.
Heating hot water is also available with an OWB.
Both the outdoor unit and add can/will heat your whole house, and that's the advantage of both units which MOST free standing wood stoves don't do.

I went with the OWB because of space limitations in my house. I had heated with a fire place insert for 10 years or so and would have had to demo my fire place and build a closet to install an add on. That wasn't happening.

I have helped a couple guys install add on furnaces and really like the idea, especially the one with thermostatically controlled blower on the fire box.

I love my OWB, I have no regrets and I am glad to have it, how ever, if I had the room/logistics, I would saved the cash money and installed an add on.

If/when the OWB retires I will more than like be in the position to install an aesthetically pleasing, full function wood stove indoors and buy me a rocking chair and rock my days away while poking at the fire!:msp_wink:

 

[leon]

wood etc.

After moving into this house at the end of last years heating season, we didn't get struck hard with any propane charges. This year being our first full winter here, I'm already not happy. I had thought about wood last summer, but never did anything since I didn't think the sting of buying propane would bother me this much.

That said, I will have wood heat for next winter, though I am not sure exactly which route I will take. Currently, house is 2500 sq. ft total (1st floor + basement), very well insulated, and tight, and I have propane forced air heat and propane hot water heater.

I am considering either building a chimney, tieing into exisitng duct work and installing an Englander 28-3500 Add-on wood furnace, or installing an OWB that can heat the house and the hot water. Getting wood is not an issue, plenty of it available and I've already got seasoned hard wood that could be used on an indoor furnace for next year if I go that route. I can do the install of either option myself, plus build a chimney on the house if I do the indoor furnace. I have a walk-out basement and the furnace would be placed near the service door for easy handling of wood.

Lots of pro's/con's to both systems, and the cost of the OWB install (~$7500) is definitely higher than that of the Add-on furnace install (~$2500), but I'm not sold that cost is the only factor to consider. Wife is on-board with either system, she likes heating with wood. She grew up with a wood stove in the living room so she's fine with burning wood and tending a fire, just not sure which route we should go.

Here's the $10,000 question: If you were in my shoes, which system would you install, and why? (Englander Furnace or an OWB?)

You have another option available to you.

you could put a wood and coal boiler in a
small outbuilding and have hot water storage.

I have an indoor wood and coal boiler and I
hate how it is set up after so many years-31 to be exact.

I plan of replacing it next year with a Harman 360 AND AT LEAST
1500 GALLONS OF STORAGE. I will be buying at least 3 of the New Horizons
490 gallon fully insulated storage tanks to have huge water mass/heat sink.

I have about 40 gallons of storage between the two boilers and the cycling
of the kerosene boiler uses a lot of fuel because the school house is so old and drafty.

I have to keep the ash pit door open partway to keep the house warm when there is no wind to create
adequate draft-my chimney is an 8 by 12 and it is too big, plus both units share the same chimney which will be changed when the time comes.

just keep in mind that it takes very little fuel to keep a large amounts of water hot when it is already hot.
The more storage you have the the higher the efficiency and the less total fuel you will burn.

The added plus with storage is the storage is not impacted by the combustion chamber of the OWB because the combustion chamber for a wood and coal boiler is small and better designed.

 

[Fyrebug]

If you don't have a chimney, don't go to the trouble of building your own masonry chimney. Just install a HT2100 rated Stainless steel chimney. Avoid Air cooled or triple wall. They are cheaper but harder to maintain a draft.

Also, even in a well insulated house 2,500 Sq Ft to heat is large enough. What is the BTU output of your current furnace and what is the CFM on the blower? If the current BTU and CFM is adequate you need to match a wood furnace similarly. Your BTU output rating on a wood furnace should be on 'Average' since a BTU rating on "High" only lasts one hour or so.

If your ductwork is in place and you have a buddy working HVAC, he might be able to look at your ductwork, do some calculations and come up with a CFM requirement to maintain a specific static pressure. Too little or too much will greatly affect the performance of a wood furnace.

If you've not made your decision yet we are coming up with an EPA rated furnace late this summer in the Englander/Hotblast price range.

 

[avason]

If you can afford it, I would go for the OWB for a few reasons. One, you keep the mess outside. Don't have to worry about bringing bugs into the house. Two, it is much easier to clean out as well. Three, depending on the size of the OWB, you can load it once a day instead of having to put wood in an add-on every couple of hours. Four, you might want to check with your insurance and make sure they allow an indoor stove. If so, it might raise your rates up. Five, an OWB will easily pay for itself in a few years especially if you heat water too. Heating the water makes a big difference on the electric bill. For us, just one water heater hooked up to the OWB saves almost $100 a month. We also have to heat the water to 170 degrees. We have to water heaters hooked up to the OWB.

There are some drawbacks to an OWB of course. First is the cost. The stove is the biggest expense but the underground piping is not cheap either. And you don't want to go the cheap route on that part of it. We did and we are paying for it. Second is it requires electricity to run. No electric, no heat. Where as with an indoor stove, you can still at least heat the house. Third, an OWB will probably use more wood too.

We have used both and we prefer the OWB. IMO, the OWB is worth it in the long run.

I ran the cheaper undergroung pipe because the guys at the owb said it would be fine...not so. I have snow melt every year and it really bugs me. I'm replacing the lines this year with better ones. It's gonna be costly but it is worth it to me.

 

[jh35]

I ran the cheaper undergroung pipe because the guys at the owb said it would be fine...not so. I have snow melt every year and it really bugs me. I'm replacing the lines this year with better ones. It's gonna be costly but it is worth it to me.

I heard too many stories like yours so I spent 11USD/ft on the CB Thermopex. The Logstor version was 12USD/ft and father away from me.

 

[johnnylabguy]

If you have the cash and the plentiful wood supply, then I think an outdoor woodburner sounds like it would work best for you.

I wouldn't tear out that boiler system...it would work great with an OWB wouldn't it? The even heat, filling only once/twice a day, and fire outside is what I'm after eventually. Do you have an outbuilding now or eventually you'd like to heat? Another nod to the OWB.

I have an Indoor furnace with the walkout garage that works good for me as supplemental heat and I love it, but I'm gone too much during the day and have the lil tikes to look after in the evenings to keep a fire going for steady heat easily. Granted mines just a Hotblast cheapy so u could get longer times with something nicer.

Either one will work in the end and as a bonus you get to buy lots of chainsaws! Good luck!