Oxman Kickin A$$ at 125ft

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shortly before the incident in the article, i got a call from oxman, wanting to talk about what he was doing. i still hold to what i said to him: life is about finding out who you are. your experiences are for that reason.

with any luck, he's getting to know himself.

the other option, which some of us prefer, is to sit back and judge everybody else by some measuring stick we carry around in our unexamined rule book.

it seems we have a poor understanding of activism...it's just something to do so you don't have to have a real job.

activism is for lazy dope-smoking hippies? it's easier than getting a job? no. it's not. otherwise i would be an activist. it takes an incredible amount of commitment and self-sacrifice. if it's true as has been suggested that some of us didn't care enough to do something 'acceptable' to save the trees, and that that is lamentable, then perhaps we owe a debt of gratitude to the radicals who are willing to risk their lives to take up the slack for us. because if most of us are not willing to save the environment by 'socially acceptable' means (oiling some palms), then the few who are left that are willing to do something are given little choice. how much money would it take to buy the land and preserve it? especially if it's owned by someone who can only see dollar signs. these issues are never black or white. at any rate, it would take a whole heck of a lot more money than a few activisits could hope to come up with or it would have been done. how many people would you have to get to pool together? and how do you make people aware of the issue in the first place? how in the world do you make them care? how do you know those avenues haven't been tried and lost? maybe the activists are hoping somebody will at least notice, for heaven's sake, that there's even anything needing to be preserved if they can get some publicity. telling them to just come up with the money is a pretty simplistic directive.

private property. that's a rich subject. what happens if you can't pay your property taxes for a couple years in a row? still think you own that property? what if 'the government' thinks of a reason they 'need' your property? how about a national emergency and fema goes into action?

better though, for this argument, what if you 'own' the property on which stands the one thing that will keep the earth liveable for everyone? and you don't want it there. should you be permitted to destroy it because it's on your property? or what if you want to do something on your property that will destroy the liveability of your neighbors? should you be permitted to do it because it's on your 'private' property?

it's not really so simple as private property rights. like treespyder says, connectivity counts.
 
b/w

Originally posted by mquinn
how much money would it take to buy the land and preserve it? especially if it's owned by someone who can only see dollar signs. these issues are never black or white.

Fortunately, these issues ARE black and white. If the owner was to gain one million dollars from cutting down those trees, she/he will no-doubt sell them to the tree-preservationists for $1,000,001.00

Long live the tree hugger, and Ox, take it easy on 'em. I'll whip another rope for you, in exchange for every ass you DON'T whip!!!

love
nick
 
It's just easy to say one thing and then do another.

I get a rise out of the "no topping campaign"....yet witness a tree service who advertise just such and goes and tops anyway. I get a bigger rise when a "Christian" goes and bombs a woman's clinic.

Money's a powerful motivator until an intimate relationship with death allows for a somewhat altered perspective of that.

We need a bit more depth. The easiest route between A and B might not always be a straight line.

Measure your emotional responses. Protection of property, especially when it's not yours, is woprth dying over? Is life worth four monthly truck payments?

If a living from "jacking" can't be made with selective cutting or admirable arbor work, he wasn't worth what he percieves he's not anyway. It's a self-image problem exacerbated by fiscal irresponsibilities. Blood money won't help in the long run, I tried that too. MacMillan Bloedel or any of the rest of 'em don't give one rat's a$$ about your kids or your health or your truck.

Kenneth Lay got away. Would you die for him too?
 
Man what a topic!
If you think this is right or not right,
this type of news cannot help either side.
I thought the whole idea was to extract in a non-violent way the tree sitters.

Police often lose their cool. In fact there is a law in many cities that the officer who begins a chase shall not be allowed to be the final arresting officer because of the strong emotions that are generated.
Hey if I was hiring the extractors I would not allow this to continue.
On the other hand I can tottally understand being upset that someone wanted to cut my rope (has this been confirmed?) but it is really part of the job and the situation should be handled professionally and impartially.
the chips will fly in a performance situation and some times things may not look right and somebody may get hurt.
One thing I read (I dont know personally) was Oxe has a repuation of violence. This should be investigated. It can only harm both sides case for working this out. In addition it is a liability for his team mates.

I would like to hear from the folks directly involved.
I really dont have enough information and I think that the majority of folks here and elseware dont have enough information either to form factually based opinions.
Frans
 
By the 1980s, more than 80% of the old growth in the Pacific Northwest had been logged. For the US Forest Service logging has changed, in the last decade, because of New Forestry practices adopted after court ordered protection of the Northern spotted owl and its habitat. On Federal lands before any cutting can take place, a survey must be done to assess the presence or absence of more than 400 species. This is expensive and hard to do over hundreds of thousands of hectares of National forest land. This represents a major change in policy for the Forest Service after a century of clearcutting and sterilizing the site before replanting.
Clearcutting is no longer done on Federal lands and harvest of old growth has been virtually stopped. Few mills are left that can still process old growth logs. Dr. Jerry Franklin predicts that the US will not be able to compete on the international timber market in the future. High production timber farms in the Southern hemisphere with a 20 to 30 year harvest rotation will be able to dominate the market and supply the world with enough pulp and lumber.
Logging is not as regulated on private lands. Private timber owners know the trends and the paths to the greatest economic returns in the future. They cut it now, then sell and move south. In the Seattle Times, last week, was an article about Weyerhaeuser purchasing prime timberland in Uruguay.
Forests have always been seen only for the maximum use and dollar signs and only recently as components in complex species to species relationships. For those who want to run big tree canopy ecotourism, it is fortunate that there are old growth trees protected in National parks and on Forest Service land. Is there a market for climbing 50 feet into an even aged, single species, even rowed tree farm?

Justina Kraus
College of Forest Resources
University of Washington
 
seems it´s time to reflect about the values in our lifes ... is it money? is it laws? or is there something bigger behind? what can money do for you? can it produce oxygen? what can laws do for you? can they filter water (just to mention two of the innumerable benefits the human beings get from trees)? what are these man-made pieces of paper in comparison to a living being growing for hundreds of years?

all those who stand with mike oxman: why do you climb trees? for what reasons do you remove trees? is it only because of the money? do you really want to loose another landmark after the empire state building?

people who decide to climb a tree and spend days and weeks and months up there - you may call them hippies and they might not have a job and they might smoke joints and you may have a look a julia butterfly hills book to see that these are not vacations up there - that´s their contribution to society. it´s not money that keeps us alive, it´s the trees. so yes, the tree-sitters might be illegal trespassers to laws written by men and still, there is more behind this - the right of trees to live and that they cannot go to court themselves.

i don´t believe we can find a solution in offering the private property owners money to sell the trees to the "tree-huggers" ... first the idea seems awkward to me that these trees could be owned or sold - because of their majesty and their age and their history. secondly, where could we get all that money from to buy all? there is a huge amount of money involved in logging these trees and there are still a couple of them left.

who wants to change quick money for long grown beautiful living beings? for sure, not me

ronnia
 
I think it all comes to what one is willing to do for money. Personally, I don’t even top trees for money and mind you, I’ve just lost a hell of a good client because of my refusal to “redimension” a beautiful beech.
I also think that, regardless of one’s opinion on the issue, Oxman risked a lot: unlike law enforcement agents, he doesn’t have a liscence to kill and if anyone got hurt he would be in serious trouble. The big timber people know that and I guess that more than climbing skills they needed a scapegoat if something happened. I can almost hear the spokesman of the company after the accident: “We’ve hired the climbers just to explain our point of view and try to convince the sitters to come down. We do not endorse any act of violence and if there was any, the climbers have acted on their own initiative.” After that they would probably sue Oxman and pay for the sitters’ lawyer…

Sergio
 
I have to agree with sergio about the lawsuit/liability end with one exception. This is America - the responsible party isn't always the one who pays, here it is the party that has the deepest pockets. No contract or subcontractor agreement will change that.

You are making some big assumptions that anyone was even assulted here. The publication has no credibility. For all any of you know, this guy ate one too many mushrooms and Oxman was kind enough to restrain him so the purple elephants didn't carry him away.

No one here knows what happened. Save your judgements.

So, giant trees deserve special treatment over smaller trees?? Giant trees have more rights?? Sounds fishy like some kind of master race of trees. The landowner is then penalized for owning large trees w/out any compensation????

I think these giants should be saved and should be left to die with dignity (nothing lives forever). I just don't think the government should be left to do this. I think other avenues should be explored - you are all so vocal about saving this tree - why not pool money?? Oh yeah, you don't care that much about it?? If money is just paper, why not send all that you have to try to save this tree?? Hmmm??

In a utopian world, this timber co would wise up and sell this forest for pennies on the dollar and have it name the XYZ Timber Co. Park. A place for eco tourists, etc and take a cut off eco tourism. Then they could do what ever it is that blows their hair back and still have a good image. Instead, they give a bad name to all of the really legit timber outfits that truly care what the public thinks. They at least strictly follow BMPs.
 
Originally posted by TREETX
You are making some big assumptions that anyone was even assulted here.

If money is just paper, why not send all that you have to try to save this tree?? Hmmm??


I think I was misunderstood...
I meant to say that even if the sitter fell down completely on his own while Oxman was in the tree he would be in trouble. The other guy could "think" he saw Oxman doing something and that would mean going to court...

I do try to save all the (beautiful) trees that come my way. The beech I mentioned was a $600 job and on top of that I lost the client (which was a gardener that used to call me often). Isn't that the same of spending money?

The U.S. has in the last couple of years conquered and occupied two countries. I'm sure there are uniform guys able to take someone down from a tree without the help of arborists.
It's OK to be against the sitters and think that they should be evacuated. The question is: why me? I've decided to be an arborist and not a policeman...

Sergio
 
The question is: why me? I've decided to be an arborist and not a policeman...

I couldn't agree with you more.....

The U.S. has in the last couple of years conquered and occupied two countries. I'm sure there are uniform guys able to take someone down from a tree without the help of arborists.

The US take care of problems in its own back yard instead of policing around the world....now you are dreaming..
:p
 
Bob I have to think you need some sort of medical help.

Why take it out on the logging company? They purchase the land/logging rights with the purpose of LOGGING the trees. If you want to judge someone unethical go after the person/company that sold the land/logging rights to the logging company. Why not chain/lock yourself, sit, pester, etc. the property of the company or individual that sold off the old growth trees. It's not like the logging company is sneaking onto private land and stealing trees (please try and stay on topic here and not bring up tree theft).
Complaining about how Ox treats you while your committing a criminal act is like sueing someone for getting hurt while robbing their house. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't give you the right to break the law. There are right and wrong ways to implement change and breaking the law is the wrong way. If you want to protect old growth trees than lobby for laws that protect old growth trees. If you don't want to get beat up for trespassing than don't trespass. What ever you choose stop whining and do something the right way. Then you can talk about what you did instead of crying about what should happen. If your too lazy to do something, please suffer silently.

Bring it on.
 
If were getting into theft, tresspassing, and "public property" we're going to where people don't venture - railroad land grants evolving into timber company land.

Many people do not recognize the legality of ownership of land that wasn't accorded legal deed in the first place. I have two copies of documents that gave that specific section of land to a tribal interest from the United States Congress and signed by a President. Therefore, irregardless of the trees or who tries to protect them..from timber intersts or environmental interests...all parties are tresspassers. Arguments moot. Ya'll are wrong.

My wife sees white people fighting white people - she just hopes they destroy each other in the process of greed. First it was gold, then it becomes water, now it's trees.
 
It's not just old growth harvest that these people protest. In Oregon several protest activities are over commercial thinning in stands that are far younger that that; the truth of the matter is they want to halt all logging on public and private lands. This is the same attitude that we see when political powers place hazardous industries in poor, minority neighborhoods. That's the "not in my back yard" mentality. These folks don't see the bigger picture...if we sate our appetite for wood fiber in the third world, we increase environmental damage because those places don't have the luxury of strict environmental laws governing logging practices like we have here in the US. By not managing our own resources to meet our needs, we sacrifice the environmental health of the planet.
 
The extraction crews have had to go ont to private land where home owners wanted to get some money from the sale of a few trees so they could do inprovements.

These guys have some saftey training and such, with this and thier climbing skills they are much more qualified then the local constabulary or fire/rescue personel.

While I'm not for the logging of old growth trees, it does take 1000 years to grow a thousand year old tree, I cannot fault a guy for taking a job removing some a bunch of trust fund babies from trees.

Hey Reed, now the red man has got the casinos to suck money from the white mans pocket. To bad it is mostly the poor white guy who fits the demographic.
 
Ya gotta point there JPS. I'd like to add however, that a management company based out of Mpls. gets .75 out of every 1.00 spent on chance. It's a Jewish conglomerate, the CEO the son of one of my honorary Uncles. They build 'em, manage 'em, and take the chunk..Chippewa and Lakota mostly...wife's Cherokee, they don't do casinos.

I have another friend who gets his 100K plus every year just being a tribal enrolee. After a few decades of less than nothing though, it's called payback. Nothing's free - not even that land westward expansionism took. The railroads however - that's an interesting story. To this day.

I remember the rifle range training - Charles Whitman was considered a good marine because of his marksmanship - our DI called him a hero for his kill rate. Going a bit overboard I thought but training for efficiency is tantamount to quality product when they're done, like the U.S. trained squad that gulleted the four nuns in Nicaragua - had to see those nuns as "commies" before they got the nerve to hack them to death. That's what worries me about either supporting or condeming Oxman based on the necessity of his target or not. My active duty was considered patriotic by Americans but they knew nothing about what is was I did. The timber glut has not even been mentioned in this entire debate - not has the export of logs to Japan. We color the personality type of the protesters without knowing any of them personally - just like those nuns. The article prohibits judgement on any side because it was written from an extremely slighted perspective. That alone screams of further inquiry - simplistic responses cored from emotion also told us to go turn Iraq into a democracy using DU weaponry, hindsight now tells us we messed-up royally. When a few thousand G.I.'s are denied adaquate health care in the coming years as a result of Iraq duty - we'll probably react with total condemnation when they encamp on the Mall in front of the White House refusing to move, doing battle with the D.C. police force.

We're easy - us citizens reading the headlines. We're a jealous bunch, quick to call to send Martha Stewart to prison but completely forgetting about Kenneth Lay.

Wish I were an entitled something or other - got bennies somewhere out there but nix them in favor of accountability. When someone windfalls, the result's usually ugly, even "oppressed" peoples.
 
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hey guys ... stick to the point.

this about trees, not about money or private property laws or american history or the role of the USA in global politics.

the challenge for arborists is to preserve trees - no matter if they are small or tall, it´s only that the tall trees get less & less. what is your definition of arborist "one who chops down trees for money" or "one who cares for trees"

sergio, it´s so good to know that there are still other arborists out there refusing to "redimension" trees, even if they loose money and costumers

i think when it´s all about human beings, we can well apply man-made laws. if it comes down to trees, there are other aspects to consider. as well, here´s a lot of violation of laws and rights going on - violation of privat property rights by the tree sitters, violation of physical completeness of mike oxman and eric schatz e.g. (did you already have a look at http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1616458.php) and violation of freedom of press by the police kicking out independent journalists. what´s about the rights of the trees?

good on ya, mates ... ronnia
 
The press has no right to come onto private property.

The sitters are still physically complete. No toes left in the trees.

I do care for trees but part of caring for trees and land involves a redistribution of the growth potential.........

The article you cite is very cute but it lacks any credibility as a journalistic publication - way too much bias and way too little fact or information.


BTW - Amen to that Burnham. Do these protesters use toilet paper?????
 
Where do you guys find toilet paper made from old growth redwood? How about doug fir? Clean up your words a little, not a bad pun...

By not managing our own resources to
meet our needs, we sacrifice the environmental health of the planet.

Maybe change that around, if humans managed our needs with respect to the resources, the environmental health of the planet might be in better shape. Doing small things can make a big difference.

This week I took a trailer load of scrap steel, brass, batteries, etc. to the salvage yard. I got a whole $42! The bigger reward is knowing that there will be a smaller hole in the ground in northern Minnesota, Brazil or some other country since my little dab of iron will be reused. Oh, and I get to have a few free lunches.

When I collect small steel scraps they go into plastic 55 gallon drums with a chainsaw cut drainage slot in the bottom. At the scrap yard, the guy on the magnetic back hoe pulled off one of the buckets, set it down carefully and tipped it on its side. then he slipped the mag onto the bottom, flipped it up and dumped out the steel. Kind of like a King Kong sized tip over. I gave him a smile and a thumbs up. He grinned :) Pretty cool seeing a good operator on the machine.

Tom
 
Tom - it is a BIG roll of toilet paper:p

Mainly a comment to those that protest ANY cutting and believe we shouldn't eat or consume anything with a shadow.
 
I'm one of those who is torn betwixt the horns on this one. I understand the need to work, I believe in property rights, but I love the giants that take so many generations to be replaced. This time frame is what makes the "grow back" argument a red herring. For us they truly are irreplaceable.

I am concerned about the loss of biodiversity we do not understand. The colonies of diferent orders that make a large tre a mini eco system in and of itself.

Loggers decry the loss of a lifestyle when it is the mechanization of the industry that has eliminated so many jobs. As for the sawmills, why do we ship so much round wood out when we could do the value added services here? Never hear that in the debates.

Getting the kids out of the trees to harvest the timber is one reason they are doing it. The other is the liabilityb the property opwner incures by having these crazy kids living there.
 

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