Pine tree drop gone horribly wrong
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Man I have done a few dumb things, but not that! Thank God it wasn't me with the saw in my hand. I have been considering dropping a spindly Walnut on the property line of my 81 year old fathers house but the electric wires, detached garage and house I would have to thread scares the heck out of me. I'm getting smarter in my old age.
Maybe I could hit the Craigslist and find somebody to drop it for the wood! Just joking!
Maybe I could hit the Craigslist and find somebody to drop it for the wood! Just joking!
griffonks, my last few hard trees were left to young professionals. The first time, I kept thinking I could buy a good used saw for the cost of that falling. After the first one it gets easier. :msp_smile: Ron
Dan_IN_MN
Addicted to ArboristSite
Well put!
I may be repeating what others have already stated, but here are my thoughts.
Do you think the 'faller' was thinking more about hitting windmill (I believe hitting the windmill was a game which removed his thoughts from the task at hand) than thinking about what he was doing? Like others said, that notch is aiming towards the trailer. It hit what it was aimed at.
Was there any chance of correcting the poorly cut facecut/notch?
OR here's another thought:
Should it even be considered a facecut or just a weak spot in the tree? Was this cut used to weaken the tree and force from the pulling vehicle used to break the tree off it's stump? Was this his technique he used to cut the other trees? What do those stumps look like? I came to this thought because, who would aim a facecut towards something that they didn't want to hit?
Which direction was his rope pulling? If the windmill was the target, he should be pulling towards/over it and not away from it.
If he used the notch as a weak point, and had intended on breaking the tree off, he should have been pulling away from the trailer and the windmill.
Clear as mud! Anyone else have these thoughts? Do you hear the same voices? :msp_scared:
spidermonkey17
ArboristSite Operative
As a certified arborist and also a tree climber for the last ten years, there is one thing that has not been really said is that you get what you pay for. The reason the guy with the chainsaw and a pickup truck is so cheap and the guys with the credentials and know what they doing cost more is that you get results like this one. Also any chainsaw has sight lines on them for felling if this guy had known this he would have seen that he was way off and could have made a minor correction. Not sure why there was no back cut but essentially he almost looks like he made a snapped cut on the tree which allowed the tree to go in any direction it wanted no matter what he did. The only thing that could have helped the situation could have been to put two relief cuts below the notch because in the picture it looks like he spun the tree which is a typical thing in a pine tree without putting those relief cuts on the tree. One way to look at this situation is that no one was hurt and property can be replaced and hopefully another guy has learned to leave tree work to the professional.
Also using little sleep or tired as a excuse is Busch league, any one that has done this job long enough knows what its like to be tired and hot and just ready to go home, but you know to get some water in the system, eat some food, and re focus on the job at hand and get it done.
Also using little sleep or tired as a excuse is Busch league, any one that has done this job long enough knows what its like to be tired and hot and just ready to go home, but you know to get some water in the system, eat some food, and re focus on the job at hand and get it done.
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Dan_IN_MN
Addicted to ArboristSite
If you were dropping this tree, would you move the trailer if you intended it to go in the other direction? How safe do you play?
No way would I consider myself a pro! When ever I'm falling, my truck is no where near the drop zone. It may be an old piece of junk, but it's my snowplow/wood hauler piece of junk!
spidermonkey17
ArboristSite Operative
without seeing what the top looked like what the branches where doing (what kind of stretch they had on them) how tall the the thing was. Just several factors would weigh my decision on to move the trailer or not. Looking at the picture and the lane that is open to drop this thing, then yes i would, leave the trailer there. If it was a doubt in my mind that something might catch it, then i would move the trailer. I don't consider myself a expert in felling, anything can go wrong, but confidence is everything. If i thought something needed to come off the tree first then i would climb up the tree and take care of that, come down and drop that pole.
haveawoody
Addicted to ArboristSite
The second picture tells all.
If you look just behind the tree stump you can see the discarded wedge of wood from the deep cut.
I had to think about what that big a wedge of wood was for a bit.
I bet he pulled toward the windmill and simple forces took over to take it where the cut was aimed.
The wood snap lines on the back of the tree are pretty telling also.
An odd cutting technique to say the least.
I move all my equiptment away before any drop.
Though i have never had one crush anything i have had a few do very odd unexpected things on the way down.
If you look just behind the tree stump you can see the discarded wedge of wood from the deep cut.
I had to think about what that big a wedge of wood was for a bit.
I bet he pulled toward the windmill and simple forces took over to take it where the cut was aimed.
The wood snap lines on the back of the tree are pretty telling also.
An odd cutting technique to say the least.
I move all my equiptment away before any drop.
Though i have never had one crush anything i have had a few do very odd unexpected things on the way down.
The pictures in this thread remind me of the saying "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing". Just because I can shoot a rifle doesn't make me a marksman or safe. Same thing with a saw. I hope the guy learned something useful. I hope I learn a little more every day as well. Ron
Dalmatian90
Addicted to ArboristSite
(We'll see how badly the engineers tell me I botched this later :msp_biggrin
Wheels are no small matter.
Tires locked up, on pavement, will have a coefficient of friction of about 0.8.
Tires turning freely, on pavement, will have a rolling coefficient of friction of about 0.015.
If I'm remembering my math right:
16,500 x 0.015 = 247.5 pounds of force to move the trailer. I could do it with a hitch dolly...but your Dodge will be able generate enough momentum to get to road speed.
Lock it up solid so the wheels don't turn, it'll take 16,500 x 0.8 = 13,200# to drag the trailer somewhere.
Reverse it, you have a 7200# Dodge, with the tires not moving (brakes or you're applying power equal to the pull), 7200 x 0.8 = 5,760#. That's the most "break out" power you'll have. If you try a straight pull that trailer with the locked up wheels from a dead stop, your Dodge will spin it's wheels.
Now that's on pavement. Ice, gravel, grass will all different values.
Now, if you're moving momentum comes into play...and speed adds up fast.
You also might try to get torque working on your side -- and I'm not talking engine torque. Rather then trying to straight pull that dead load trailer, come in at an angle. For example's sake, let's figure you have a *really* long trailer hitch and can line up 90º to the tongue. Now let's figure your trailer wheels are 14' behind the ball. 5760# of breakout force x 14' = 80,640ft-lbs...betcha that'll twitch it free...now that you have some momentum you might be able to keep the load moving (though my math skill start to break down trying to do those calculations
)It's not just trucks. Watch people who pull competively with animals. As the loads get heavy, you'll see horse teams always use momentum to get a load started and some times twitch it too. Oxen folks don't use momentum to start loads, but they'll always twitch the heavy ones by starting to pull a bit off then straighten themselves.
In the case of pulling the top of a tree we have a few things going on.
Basically while you're pulling the tree, the tree is pulling you UP. The torque we used horizontally to twitch the trailer is now working vertically to pull you up and reduce the amount of weight on the wheels, thus reducing how hard you can pull before the tires spin or get dragged.
My physics is way too rusty to try and figure out the force and vector math though
Conversely, if you can pull something lower then your hitch that will increase your traction, though you might hit a point of diminishing returns as your front end comes up (not really sure all the math involved at that point!)
Since 5,760# is how much it takes to move your Dodge on pavement with the wheels locked up, if you really want to push that 8,000# winch to it's limits you best have some good wheel chocks to keep your truck from being dragged.
Did I make this clear as mud?
(Engineer / Physics types please tell me I didn't screw it too much
)Correct the tension comes off the rope as soon as the tree begins to move...unless of course you fire up the truck and pull to start the fall and can then outrace it. BTDT but got so interested in watching the tree come I forgot about the "outrace part.
.I have tried to augment the time tension has an effect by hanging a couple 5 gal buckets of water about midway of the rope. Dunno if it really works but it seems logical and does "feel good".
Harry K
hardpan
Addicted to ArboristSite
Gentlemen
Thank you for your responses about rope pulling. I apologize for asking a question and then being unavailable for follow up. I've been away camping the last 4 days ( 103 degrees each day is not the best weather for it) and no computer access.
Everyone agrees the pictures indicate FUBAR but the OP said a rope pull was involved. Good point, when pulling off-direction from the notch and back cut then the hinge is disabled and crazy stuff is possible. I still have questions about the load rating of a rope for a safe pull. Now I know it is amusing to watch a robust young stud tie a rope between "captain winky" and a loaded 18 wheeler and pull it on level pavement but in the real world we use tractors and pick-ups (or bigger) and testosterone is a bit less involved. Personally I have a 3100 pound 4WD tractor. I want a rope to hook to a stationary object like a tree and pull until the tires break traction before the rope breaks and approaches me at 200mph. Maximum pull is the only one we can really measure. What is the minimum rope rating I should use?
Thank you for your responses about rope pulling. I apologize for asking a question and then being unavailable for follow up. I've been away camping the last 4 days ( 103 degrees each day is not the best weather for it) and no computer access.
Everyone agrees the pictures indicate FUBAR but the OP said a rope pull was involved. Good point, when pulling off-direction from the notch and back cut then the hinge is disabled and crazy stuff is possible. I still have questions about the load rating of a rope for a safe pull. Now I know it is amusing to watch a robust young stud tie a rope between "captain winky" and a loaded 18 wheeler and pull it on level pavement but in the real world we use tractors and pick-ups (or bigger) and testosterone is a bit less involved. Personally I have a 3100 pound 4WD tractor. I want a rope to hook to a stationary object like a tree and pull until the tires break traction before the rope breaks and approaches me at 200mph. Maximum pull is the only one we can really measure. What is the minimum rope rating I should use?
I use a 1" three strand nylon rope and it has proven to be more than enough for my 6000# Landcrusier and my 3000#+ 4WD tractor. As to rating I would think you would want 5 times the weight of your tractor. This is by no means a technical answer; just what has worked for me. BTW if at all possible I prefer pulling with the truck - less likely to flip and more material around me to absorb things if something goes badly. Ron
haveawoody
Addicted to ArboristSite
For me it's a 10 ton winch on my truck.
I climb up the tree 2/3 and hook on the winch or throw a line on trees 50ft or less, park the truck beyond the fall distance front bumper behind another tree then add tension to the winch.
Quick disconect for the winch if i can't get the truck in place, then same setup just a loop around another tree to secure winch and an extra battery to power it truckless.
Then the fell cut is already under tension before you make it, the taugt winch line helps you mark your notch and fell cut with just a eyeball look at the winch line.
I climb up the tree 2/3 and hook on the winch or throw a line on trees 50ft or less, park the truck beyond the fall distance front bumper behind another tree then add tension to the winch.
Quick disconect for the winch if i can't get the truck in place, then same setup just a loop around another tree to secure winch and an extra battery to power it truckless.
Then the fell cut is already under tension before you make it, the taugt winch line helps you mark your notch and fell cut with just a eyeball look at the winch line.
spidermonkey17
ArboristSite Operative
Three strand rope is great in this type of situation, just have to think all you are really pulling is the tree over the axis point of the wedge cut, but if you are really concerned with the strength of the rope here is one that we keep on our bucket trucks and use it for pretty much all rigging(we do go up to 3/4" once we start butt hitching wood down.) Just remember set that line as high as you can in the canopy of the tree, a good way is to use a throw ball and throw line then run the rigging rope up through that crotch, tie a running bowline, then a bowline on a bight to the tractor/truck pintal hitch and bam you are in business.
Stable Braid Rigging Rope by Samson, 16mm : SherrillTree Tree Care Equipment
Stable Braid Rigging Rope by Samson, 16mm : SherrillTree Tree Care Equipment
treemandan
Tree Freak
####ing insurance adjusters huh?
Did I make this clear as mud?
(Engineer / Physics types please tell me I didn't screw it too much )
ya done REALLY good job. great post.
kcj
(Engineer / Physics types please tell me I didn't screw it too much )
ya done REALLY good job. great post.
kcj
hardpan
Addicted to ArboristSite
(We'll see how badly the engineers tell me I botched this later :msp_biggrin
Wheels are no small matter.
Tires locked up, on pavement, will have a coefficient of friction of about 0.8.
Tires turning freely, on pavement, will have a rolling coefficient of friction of about 0.015.
If I'm remembering my math right:
16,500 x 0.015 = 247.5 pounds of force to move the trailer. I could do it with a hitch dolly...but your Dodge will be able generate enough momentum to get to road speed.
Lock it up solid so the wheels don't turn, it'll take 16,500 x 0.8 = 13,200# to drag the trailer somewhere.
Reverse it, you have a 7200# Dodge, with the tires not moving (brakes or you're applying power equal to the pull), 7200 x 0.8 = 5,760#. That's the most "break out" power you'll have. If you try a straight pull that trailer with the locked up wheels from a dead stop, your Dodge will spin it's wheels.
Now that's on pavement. Ice, gravel, grass will all different values.
Now, if you're moving momentum comes into play...and speed adds up fast.
You also might try to get torque working on your side -- and I'm not talking engine torque. Rather then trying to straight pull that dead load trailer, come in at an angle. For example's sake, let's figure you have a *really* long trailer hitch and can line up 90º to the tongue. Now let's figure your trailer wheels are 14' behind the ball. 5760# of breakout force x 14' = 80,640ft-lbs...betcha that'll twitch it free...now that you have some momentum you might be able to keep the load moving (though my math skill start to break down trying to do those calculations
It's not just trucks. Watch people who pull competively with animals. As the loads get heavy, you'll see horse teams always use momentum to get a load started and some times twitch it too. Oxen folks don't use momentum to start loads, but they'll always twitch the heavy ones by starting to pull a bit off then straighten themselves.
In the case of pulling the top of a tree we have a few things going on.
Basically while you're pulling the tree, the tree is pulling you UP. The torque we used horizontally to twitch the trailer is now working vertically to pull you up and reduce the amount of weight on the wheels, thus reducing how hard you can pull before the tires spin or get dragged.
My physics is way too rusty to try and figure out the force and vector math though
Conversely, if you can pull something lower then your hitch that will increase your traction, though you might hit a point of diminishing returns as your front end comes up (not really sure all the math involved at that point!)
Since 5,760# is how much it takes to move your Dodge on pavement with the wheels locked up, if you really want to push that 8,000# winch to it's limits you best have some good wheel chocks to keep your truck from being dragged.
Did I make this clear as mud?
(Engineer / Physics types please tell me I didn't screw it too much
In a nut shell. If we use a rope whose tensile strength is equal to the weight of the pulling vehicle we will have 25% more rope than we need in a level, slow pull but since the rope will also have a vertical pull when tied up in a tree then the "lift" of the rope will reduce our pull ability to even less than the 0.80 coefficient. Of course one jerk will turn it into a working load and a much larger rope is needed. Add a threat to people and property and the sky is the limit. Maybe that is why the pros use the big expensive rope. Ya think? It sounds like the rope requirements differ greatly between the locations of woods and crowded residential areas. Great discussion. Thanks to all.
Preston
Addicted to ArboristSite
I guess the main thing I fail to understand is the use of the rope. I've always figured any device used in felling a tree such as a rope was not to "pull" the tree over but direct the tree as it falls, in a certain direction. Me personally would not ever attempt to pull a tree over in the opposite direction of a lean. I guess I just don't know enough about it try it. I have put a strap and a long chain on a tree to cut and attach the other end to a tree for leverage. I used it to allow the tree to fall but as it tighened strap the tree came down where I wanted it. The tree was leaning more than the front notch cut would control. Might not be correct but it worked. :msp_wink:
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