TA Eckel
New Member
I would appreciate any information on planting trees too deep during installation- symptoms, damage time frame, terminoligy, anything. Thank you.
Planting Trees Too Deep
- Thread starter TA Eckel
- Start date
Help Support Arborist Forum:
Kneejerk Bombas
ArboristSite King
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2001
- Messages
- 36,971
- Reaction score
- 9,980
Up until recently almost all trees were planted too deep, now only most trees are planted too deep.
With a tree that is planted too deep, the roots will grow up towards the surface, then turn one way or another. This is the problem, if the root turns and passes the trunk it will begin to increase in diameter atr thte same time the trunk is getting bigger. As the two impact, the root can choke off the tree. This all takes time. Just enough time for the tree to become a nice size where you really like it. A long enough time that the landscaper that planted it is long forgotten. In many cases the tree top begins to die off, other times the whole tree dies.
THe tree should be planted with the soil at the trunk flair. Go look at a tree that grew naturally, look at how it flairs out at the ground. Now go look at almost any newly planted tree, see how it looks like a telephone pole, going straight into the ground?
Learn what a graft union looks like. Don't confuse it with a trunk flair. Plant all trees with the soil level at the trunk flair. This means, in most cases, you will need to open the top of the ball and carefully remove the extra soil until you see the trunk flair. Some trees come from the nursery 14" too deep, but 4" to 8" is what I have typically seen. In extreme cases, by the time you remove all that soil, all you have left is a little tiny bit of roots and you need to stake the tree to keep it from falling right over.
It makes you feel like you got jipped and you did, because roots are a big part of what you pay for when you buy a tree. They make you think you are getting a big root system and all you are really getting is problems down the road, from girdling roots.
As far as time goes, typically, trees 15 to 30 years old die from planting depth problems. They could last longer, or are weakened and die almost immediately.
Hope this helps.
With a tree that is planted too deep, the roots will grow up towards the surface, then turn one way or another. This is the problem, if the root turns and passes the trunk it will begin to increase in diameter atr thte same time the trunk is getting bigger. As the two impact, the root can choke off the tree. This all takes time. Just enough time for the tree to become a nice size where you really like it. A long enough time that the landscaper that planted it is long forgotten. In many cases the tree top begins to die off, other times the whole tree dies.
THe tree should be planted with the soil at the trunk flair. Go look at a tree that grew naturally, look at how it flairs out at the ground. Now go look at almost any newly planted tree, see how it looks like a telephone pole, going straight into the ground?
Learn what a graft union looks like. Don't confuse it with a trunk flair. Plant all trees with the soil level at the trunk flair. This means, in most cases, you will need to open the top of the ball and carefully remove the extra soil until you see the trunk flair. Some trees come from the nursery 14" too deep, but 4" to 8" is what I have typically seen. In extreme cases, by the time you remove all that soil, all you have left is a little tiny bit of roots and you need to stake the tree to keep it from falling right over.
It makes you feel like you got jipped and you did, because roots are a big part of what you pay for when you buy a tree. They make you think you are getting a big root system and all you are really getting is problems down the road, from girdling roots.
As far as time goes, typically, trees 15 to 30 years old die from planting depth problems. They could last longer, or are weakened and die almost immediately.
Hope this helps.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
If we think of the space around the trunk out to its max mature diameter as the "zone of trunk expantion" (ZTE) we can see that the deeper a tree is planted the greater the chance forr a girdling root during it's lifetime.
Then there is the greater chance root and basal deaay.
There are documented occurances of epicormic rooting supporting a tree for uptake while the structural roots decline and decay untill the tree becomes a healty looking hazard.
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/users/ipmnet/djTreeroots.html
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/naturalresources/DD7501.html
I would add to Mikes statemnt that I feel that planting should put the first order roots at grade, not the flair. This will eliminate the possibility of any root growing in the ZTE.
Ron Zilme of Midstae Tech in Wi Rapids has done research on this also.
Then there is the greater chance root and basal deaay.
There are documented occurances of epicormic rooting supporting a tree for uptake while the structural roots decline and decay untill the tree becomes a healty looking hazard.
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/users/ipmnet/djTreeroots.html
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/naturalresources/DD7501.html
I would add to Mikes statemnt that I feel that planting should put the first order roots at grade, not the flair. This will eliminate the possibility of any root growing in the ZTE.
Ron Zilme of Midstae Tech in Wi Rapids has done research on this also.
FBerkel
ArboristSite Operative
The other problem with sinking them in too far is root suffocation. Combine this with overwatering, or heavy sod over the rootball, or both, and you've got a dead tree long before it has a chance to girdle itself. Roots need oxygen!
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
I think the girdling is a much bigger problem because it takes so much longer to happen.
Many trees are planted to comemorate an occation or in memorial to a perso. Even those where they are just planted for thier own sake people invest time, money and emotion in them. It is much worse when you have to tell the senior citizen that the tree her departed husband and son planted while the kid was in grade school is dying then if it is a 3 year instalation.
Here is a link to a paper I've been picking at for a few months
http://home.wi.rr.com/sanbornstrees/
Click on "on stem girdling roots.doc" it is an MSWord doc.
Many trees are planted to comemorate an occation or in memorial to a perso. Even those where they are just planted for thier own sake people invest time, money and emotion in them. It is much worse when you have to tell the senior citizen that the tree her departed husband and son planted while the kid was in grade school is dying then if it is a 3 year instalation.
Here is a link to a paper I've been picking at for a few months
http://home.wi.rr.com/sanbornstrees/
Click on "on stem girdling roots.doc" it is an MSWord doc.
Last edited:
Newfie
Addicted to ArboristSite
FBerkel,
Maybe I missed something along the way or my botany is too simplistic but don't trees use CO2 and give off O2? I may have my head buried somewhere dark so please help me pull it out if I am mistaken.
Maybe I missed something along the way or my botany is too simplistic but don't trees use CO2 and give off O2? I may have my head buried somewhere dark so please help me pull it out if I am mistaken.
Newfie,
As we are speaking of roots, it is entirely appropriate to have your head buried someplace dark. That's where they're found right
Oxygen is used for respiration by roots and microorganisms. It is present in lesser quantities in the soil than above ground and decreases with depth. Poorly aerated soils have low oxygen content and high carbon dioxide content. Carbon dioxide in the soil is produced as a product of decay of organic matter. It diffuses slowly through the soil, so is more abundant at greater depths. High carbon dioxide levels have a toxic effect on roots.
The use of carbon dioxide, production of oxygen you refer to is part of the process of photosynthesis. A bit of a differnt matter.
Louie Hampton
As we are speaking of roots, it is entirely appropriate to have your head buried someplace dark. That's where they're found right
Oxygen is used for respiration by roots and microorganisms. It is present in lesser quantities in the soil than above ground and decreases with depth. Poorly aerated soils have low oxygen content and high carbon dioxide content. Carbon dioxide in the soil is produced as a product of decay of organic matter. It diffuses slowly through the soil, so is more abundant at greater depths. High carbon dioxide levels have a toxic effect on roots.
The use of carbon dioxide, production of oxygen you refer to is part of the process of photosynthesis. A bit of a differnt matter.
Louie Hampton
Newfie
Addicted to ArboristSite
Ahhh! Thanks Louie. Good info. Guess I might have paid more attention in Botany. I'm a classic example of what happens when you get a degree and manage to avoid math and take only 3 semesters of any kind of science. Not well rounded, just kind of oblong.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
The sustainable threshold for O2 in soil and root growth is around 8%. Some trees can push ropots through areas like this, but not thrive.
The O2 level in soil is also why roots will take advantage of broken sewer laterals. It is as much the oxygenated soil then the neutrient rich moisture, some say it is the greatest limiting factor for root growth.
The O2 level in soil is also why roots will take advantage of broken sewer laterals. It is as much the oxygenated soil then the neutrient rich moisture, some say it is the greatest limiting factor for root growth.
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
I got some beautiful pics of a nice little cherry that is exactly what Mike M. has so well described. I see it all the time as well. Usually by the time the customer sees a problem, it's too late. This tree may have been reached in time.
Unfortunately I haven't figured out how to get these pics posted. They run around 2x the size allowed. They are jpegs. Any suggestions. I treid cropping one today and that somehow added 50% to the bytes.
Thanks,
Daniel
Unfortunately I haven't figured out how to get these pics posted. They run around 2x the size allowed. They are jpegs. Any suggestions. I treid cropping one today and that somehow added 50% to the bytes.
Thanks,
Daniel
Nickrosis
Manned by Boderators
If you e-mail me the picture, I'll resize it for you. My AOL account is better for large attachments: [email protected]
I'd be happy to do this for anyone else.
Nickrosis
I'd be happy to do this for anyone else.
Nickrosis
FBerkel
ArboristSite Operative
JPS
Great article. I'll be incorporating the radial slit trench idea for next spring's plantings.
I wonder about removing the wire before putting the tree in the hole--don't alot of such trees have their root balls explode when they drop down to the bottom? Also, how do you keep them close to vertical? Once an un-wired tree lands crooked, I don't see how you could straighten it without loosening all the roots in the root ball's soil. With the cage still on, two or three strong guys can manipulate it for lean/orientation etc., with the use of grappling hooks on the wire.
(Though in Colorado lately, it doesn't matter if they're leaning or not: they all seem to be burning up )
Great article. I'll be incorporating the radial slit trench idea for next spring's plantings.
I wonder about removing the wire before putting the tree in the hole--don't alot of such trees have their root balls explode when they drop down to the bottom? Also, how do you keep them close to vertical? Once an un-wired tree lands crooked, I don't see how you could straighten it without loosening all the roots in the root ball's soil. With the cage still on, two or three strong guys can manipulate it for lean/orientation etc., with the use of grappling hooks on the wire.
(Though in Colorado lately, it doesn't matter if they're leaning or not: they all seem to be burning up
)
FBerkel
ArboristSite Operative
(Whoops, posted twice and don't have delete authority)
Last edited:
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
They say our rain in from your fire, wish we could give you some.
with real big balls, get them situated in the pit then cut the basket down as far as possible.
One of the advanteges of the Zilmers method is that you are removing a lot of the soil from the ball before it goes into the pit. There is a myth about "disturbing the roots", just think how many times that ball has been bounced and slamed since it came out of the nursery. so by the time you get to the roots and have examined the root system you got a dirty bare root plant a lot of the time.
with real big balls, get them situated in the pit then cut the basket down as far as possible.
One of the advanteges of the Zilmers method is that you are removing a lot of the soil from the ball before it goes into the pit. There is a myth about "disturbing the roots", just think how many times that ball has been bounced and slamed since it came out of the nursery. so by the time you get to the roots and have examined the root system you got a dirty bare root plant a lot of the time.
FBerkel
ArboristSite Operative
We take the baskets off after the tree is in the hole. The less vigorous trees we've planted have all involved disruption of the root balls. I believe firm root balls are very important, to the extent that now I'll send a tree back on the delivery truck if it doesn't have one.
Interesting note on the original thread topic: I just reread a Gary Watson article from Arborist News (Feb, 2001), in which he states,
"Though never previously studied, it is often contended that trees planted too deeply have more girdling roots. In this study, there was no relationship between planting depth and girdling roots." Has a study been published that contradicts Watson's results? (not to be confrontational, just interested in the topic):angel:
Interesting note on the original thread topic: I just reread a Gary Watson article from Arborist News (Feb, 2001), in which he states,
"Though never previously studied, it is often contended that trees planted too deeply have more girdling roots. In this study, there was no relationship between planting depth and girdling roots." Has a study been published that contradicts Watson's results? (not to be confrontational, just interested in the topic):angel:
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
Here is a good example of What M.M. described.
The exposed roots are 6-10" below grade and still no sign of the trunk flare. Several crossing roots had already been removed when this pic was taken. This excavation was done during an estimate with a shovel and a hose. The owner said how well the tree had been doing, and wanted to make sure I wasn't killing it.
There is a handsaw made by Corona, I think, that cuts roots and holds it's edge. I used it during a demonstration this spring. Anyone know where I can buy one?
Thanks,
Daniel
The exposed roots are 6-10" below grade and still no sign of the trunk flare. Several crossing roots had already been removed when this pic was taken. This excavation was done during an estimate with a shovel and a hose. The owner said how well the tree had been doing, and wanted to make sure I wasn't killing it.
There is a handsaw made by Corona, I think, that cuts roots and holds it's edge. I used it during a demonstration this spring. Anyone know where I can buy one?
Thanks,
Daniel
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
Here is a good example of What M.M. described.
The exposed roots are 6-10" below grade and still no sign of the trunk flare. Several crossing roots had already been removed when this pic was taken. This excavation was done during an estimate with a shovel and a hose. The owner said how well the tree had been doing, and wanted to make sure I wasn't killing it.
There is a handsaw made by Corona, I think, that cuts roots and holds it's edge. I used it during a demonstration this spring. Anyone know where I can buy one?
Thanks,
Daniel
The exposed roots are 6-10" below grade and still no sign of the trunk flare. Several crossing roots had already been removed when this pic was taken. This excavation was done during an estimate with a shovel and a hose. The owner said how well the tree had been doing, and wanted to make sure I wasn't killing it.
There is a handsaw made by Corona, I think, that cuts roots and holds it's edge. I used it during a demonstration this spring. Anyone know where I can buy one?
Thanks,
Daniel
FBerkel
ArboristSite Operative
Any rain you can send is appreciated.
Watson wasn't specifically studying girdling roots as a function of planting depth, he was just observing a lack of correlation, so maybe his results are not definitive? Murphy's pic and jps' paper are pretty convincing.
Watson wasn't specifically studying girdling roots as a function of planting depth, he was just observing a lack of correlation, so maybe his results are not definitive? Murphy's pic and jps' paper are pretty convincing.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
Zilmer has doen a lot in this area. Gary Haure did soem statistical work too. He did a talk at(i think) the '01 ISA convention.
The thing with SGR is that it is always possible during the life of the tree. So if the tree has encircling roots anywhere in that "Zone of Trunk Expantion" they will cause girdling eventualy.
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/naturalresources/DD7501.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/users/ipmnet/djTreeroots.html
The thing with SGR is that it is always possible during the life of the tree. So if the tree has encircling roots anywhere in that "Zone of Trunk Expantion" they will cause girdling eventualy.
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/naturalresources/DD7501.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/users/ipmnet/djTreeroots.html
Jay Banks
ArboristSite Operative
For more on the girdling root topic check out
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/naturalresources/DD7501.html
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/naturalresources/DD7501.html
Similar threads
