Please teach me how to warm the stovepipe . . .

[Saus]

Hi,

I live in my old family home in a city in upstate NY. It is large (4,000 sq ft), and I have to heat w/natural gas all over, as well as a pellet stove in the front part of the house and a woodstove in the kitchen in the back of the house. It often drops down to 50 in the kitchen overnight (even w/the thermostat set at 68 and the pellet running 24/7).

I have a heck of a time getting the woodstove started when it’s cold. I try to keep it loaded all the time, but it’s a small woodstove (Dutchwest #DW1000) and I can only fit in so much without smothering the fire. It’s always out and empty when I come home from work and when I wake up in the morning, even though I lower the air control setting.

The wood box dimensions are w20”Xd10.5xh9 w/a 6”pipe that’s a straight run.

So, here’s my problem. I have twisted paper, small dried kindling and firestarter sticks. I have experimented with having the air control wide open and partially open. I have lit paper and held it up to the pipe opening. I have placed a lit firestarter (sawdust plus wax) on a raised piece of kindling to heat the pipe. I have also tried following the owner’s manual directions to the letter. They tell me to light a crumpled piece of paper and then close the door or leave it open a little. The paper goes out immediately.

The only way I have any luck is to have one of my kids stand there with the blow-dryer and heat the length of the pipe up to the ceiling for several minutes while I wait for the pipe to feel warm to the touch and then immediately light the paper/kindling/firestarter combo. After a few minutes I am able to put a small log on and a little while later a larger one, but often I get a lot of smoke and this process takes forever.

Needless to say, this is not convenient when it’s 5:30 in the morning and we are all trying to get out the door. If I rush the process and the fireplace starts to smoke (both inside and outside the house), I get soot all over my walls and a nasty call from my neighbor threatening to report me for having a downdraft. To top it all off, my dad just delivered some firewood (yeah, dad!), but he just cut it, so now I will also be dealing with unseasoned wood for the first time.

I can’t afford to heat with just gas, it costs me a fortune. Mind you, I’ve been lighting fires for years, but my grandfather’s old stove (in the same place as the new one) used to have a small electric fan in the pipe that pulled the heat up to warm the pipe. I have since been told that these are illegal and dangerous.

Please give me any suggestions or tips on how to quickly get this thing going in the mornings. I am open and eager to hear about any safe modifications. I am not “in the business” so please forgive any mis-wordings.

 

[KsWoodsMan]

I'm not sure , but if you are having that much trouble to establish a draft you probably have some sort of blockage in the chimney/pipe. It could be a squirrels nest, birds nest or possibly filled with creosote from years of use.

After burning one sheet of news paper in the back of the stove my draft is established. From there I'm ready to light the fire and start shutting it down after the stack temps start to climb past 350.

 

[stint]

I agree that I would investigate *why* you have to go to such lengths to start air moving up chimney.
In addition to no obvious blockages or restrictions.....

1) Is your chimney height the recommended 2 feet higher than any structure within 10 feet ?

2) Do you have prevailing winds that promote downdraft (cap will help)

3) Is your chimney clean out door airtight

4) Maybe one of those "T" chimney caps or those rotating caps would be last resort.

With any normal situation, having kindling bundle in stove, and holding lit newspaper up chimney, and when it burns down, just dropping it to light kindling is all anyone should need

 

[turnkey4099]

I agree that I would investigate *why* you have to go to such lengths to start air moving up chimney.
In addition to no obvious blockages or restrictions.....

1) Is your chimney height the recommended 2 feet higher than any structure within 10 feet ?

2) Do you have prevailing winds that promote downdraft (cap will help)

3) Is your chimney clean out door airtight

4) Maybe one of those "T" chimney caps or those rotating caps would be last resort.

With any normal situation, having kindling bundle in stove, and holding lit newspaper up chimney, and when it burns down, just dropping it to light kindling is all anyone should need

I second all of that. The most likely causes in descending order are a blocked chimney, chimney too short, something that is causing a dowdraft on your chimney.

One cause not mentioned. Is the stove sharing a common flue? That is generally a no-no but does happen.

No well installed system should be that hard to start.
Harry K

 

[Saus]

UPDATE:
I've had trouble starting it since it was installed and I clean it out pretty faithfully so there's no blockage.

Would a shorter chimney height be a major factor? The chimney comes out of a flat roof addition which is attached to the taller main structure about 8 ft away (from the chimney). The chimney is about 2 ft shorter than where the sloped roof begins. In addition, there is a brick house right next to us that is about 12 ft higher than the chinmey. That's about 10 ft away. The chimney sits in sort of an L-shaped area, with the taller roofs surrounding it.

 

[Beefie]

It sounds like a taller chimney might be in order hard to say without some pics of said chimney location.

Beefie

 

[RVALUE]

My pipe barely clears the dripedge, and works fine 99 % of the time. Not correct, but works. That is not an automatic failure. (Probably in one wind direction, one has problems..)

You have to have it the correct size and not restricted. (damper?) It should howl upon starting.

 

[BluCllrSchlr]

What if you pointed the hair dryer in the firebox & just let it sit there while you were getting ready in the morning?

 

[mga]

UPDATE:
I've had trouble starting it since it was installed and I clean it out pretty faithfully so there's no blockage.

Would a shorter chimney height be a major factor? The chimney comes out of a flat roof addition which is attached to the taller main structure about 8 ft away (from the chimney). The chimney is about 2 ft shorter than where the sloped roof begins. In addition, there is a brick house right next to us that is about 12 ft higher than the chinmey. That's about 10 ft away. The chimney sits in sort of an L-shaped area, with the taller roofs surrounding it.

that chimney doesn't sound legal, or at least to building codes. i live in NYS and it doesn't sound like it meets even basic codes...no matter where you live.

it would be foolish for any one to give you advice if the installation of that stove wasn't to local fire codes. we'd be contributing to a fire hazard towards you and your family's well being.

if i'm wrong, post a picture of your chimney.

 

[howellhandmade]

I've got an insert and a wood stove. The insert has a liner that goes up a 25' chimney, and has an awesome draft. The stove has a pipe that goes up, then horizontally out, then up again, and the stack outside is 8'. I have problems like what you describe, though perhaps not so bad. I start the fire with a propane torch, and the first thing I do is heat the air in the back of the stove to get it rising up the pipe, and shoot the flame up through the damper for a few seconds just before lighting. Then I light the very top of the kindling stack first (usually put some wood shavings on top) and get a small, bright fire going before adding any larger pieces of wood. The stove, a big old Buck Stove, is still pretty miserable for smoke in high winds. Eventually I'll replace it with a newer stove and add some length to the chimney, but my ritual works for now. Also, I find that using fine, bone-dry wood splits or shavings rather than newspaper for tinder helps eliminate smoke when starting.

Jack

 

[Old Goat]

A couple of more things to consider.

Is the 6" pipe triple wall (or double wall insulated) from the ceiling box to the top? How long is the run of the chimney from the stove to the top?

How air tight is your house or room that the stove is in? The air has to come from somewhere to go up the chimney. Try cracking a window in the room before you light the stove. You can close it after the fire is up and running.

I have also seen this problem with a chimney that is too long. The smoke cools long before it gets to the top and will only draft well after it has warmed up.

Try stuffing a couple of crumpled up newspaper pages up the pipe inside the stove, about 6 or 8 inches. Light this and it should flare up and start traveling up the pipe as it burns. This always works for me if for some reason I have let the stove cool on a very cold day.

If you have a prevailing wind you may need a different cap on top of the pipe.

Many building codes require 4/12, 4 feet above anything that is within 12 feet of the exterior pipe.

This is something that you should have an expert check out for you. Make sure your CO2 detector has a fresh battery and test it often.

 

[Rookie1]

Is the chimney masonary or pipe? My brick chimney has a metal liner and drafts well. If you think height is the problem could you temporarily add a section to see if that helps. Pictures would be helpful.

 

[LumberjkChamp]

Everyone has everything covered, but I don't think anyone mentioned horizontal run of the stovepipe. More than six feet of horizontal run will really kill your draft. And, if so, you should rise at least one quarter inch per foot of run. But, this is only to allow liquid creosote to drain back to the stove. It doesn't increase draft.

 

[Windwalker7]

Try cracking a window or opening an outside door in the same room, when you light up the stove.

 

[kodiakattack]

Put a big candle in there for 20 minites and crack a window and you will be off to the races!!! I have a little trouble with mine when she is ice cold and this works for me.

 

[Saus]

UPDATE:
A big thank you to all who offered such helpful advice. I will try and borrow a camera to get a couple of pics posted. Mga, I think I'm up to code as the local wood stove dealer who did the install several years ago is pretty reputable and I think he would have profited from extra work if he told me it needed to be done. However, as I stated before, I am not very knowledgeable in this area and I will work to get this double checked.

As for how airtight the room is, I wish I had that problem. This is a big, drafty house and it is COLD when the stove is not lit.

There is no horizontal run--its a straight shot through the roof, no bends.

Kodiakattack, if this problem is as simple a fix as lighting a candle, you are my hero!

A couple of questions:

How can I tell if the pipe in double insulated? If it is not, would it help if I replaced the pipe?

Would adding length to pipe to extend it out of the chimney help (improving the draft?) or hurt (pipe will be too long?)

Would extending the pipe help with the "downdraft" my neighbor occasionally complains of or make it worse because it would be even harder to start?

What is the purpose of a T or rotating chimney cap that Stint mentioned? Would this be a good solution?

Does anyone know if there is a legal attachment to pull the warm air up the cold pipe?

 

[mjl]

I have that problem at the begining of the burning season at least till the masonary heats up and stays warm. I use a propane torch that I use for soldering copper pipes. The stove pipe gets nice and hot and starts the draft pulling nicely, no puffing my wife likes the torch to start the fire when I'm working nights.

 

[Old Goat]

UPDATE:

How can I tell if the pipe in double insulated? If it is not, would it help if I replaced the pipe?

Triple wall pipe is sort of a generic term for the pipe that runs from your ceiling box to the top outside. Some of it is actually three layers inside of each other with a 1/2" or so air space in between each layer. Some of it is double wall with a layer of fireproof insulation in between the inner and outer pipe. They serve the same purpose, that is to prevent your home from catching fire and to keep the pipe warm enough for proper draft. On a long run of chimney pipe the smoke can cool as it travels up the pipe and cause creosote build up and effect draft. It is not cheap, most of it is stainless steel or at least the inner pipe is. If your stove is a recent install in your home you probably already have it.

If a wood stove is being vented into a masonry type chimney some times a stainless steel liner will be installed to help the chimney draft well and to protect the brick. Sometimes this liner can be a masonry material. If the masonry chimney is larger then the diameter of the single wall pipe (this is the pipe that connects the stove to the chimney) it can cause drafting problems. The same thing can be true if you have 8" triple wall pipe and your stove outlet and the single wall pipe from the stove to the ceiling box is 6". Some times this will work fine, there are many factors that can effect each setup.

I get soot all over my walls and a nasty call from my neighbor threatening to report me for having a downdraft. To top it all off, my dad just delivered some firewood (yeah, dad!), but he just cut it, so now I will also be dealing with unseasoned wood for the first time.

If you have a neighbor that is calling you complaining you are going to have to solve this. I can guaranty that they will not like you burning green wood.

Would a shorter chimney height be a major factor? The chimney comes out of a flat roof addition which is attached to the taller main structure about 8 ft away (from the chimney). The chimney is about 2 ft shorter than where the sloped roof begins. In addition, there is a brick house right next to us that is about 12 ft higher than the chinmey. That's about 10 ft away. The chimney sits in sort of an L-shaped area, with the taller roofs surrounding it.

I am trying to visualize your setup (pictures would help) and the thing that concerns me is that you have a home only 10 feet away and it is 12 feet higher than your chimney. This is not good for many reasons. If there are any windows in that home that are higher than your chimney they are going to get a good dose of your smoke when the windows are opened. You will get the dreaded phone call. Without seeing your setup I am assuming that your chimney is too short. How long is your total run of pipe, single wall + triple wall?

 

[mga]

i think the first place to start would be to add some sections to the very top and extend that chimney.

everything indicates it isn't drafting, especially if your neighbor is complaining of a 'downdraft". this is usually caused by the chimney being lower than ANY roof peak within 10 feet. you MUST be at least 3 feet above that point. the wind blowing over the roof, even a slight wind, will always cause your chimney to malfunction...just like you are saying.

that is why i asked if it was to code. the way you explained it sounded like it wasn't at the right height.

as for warming the chimney to get a fire going....you should only have to burn a crumpled piece of newspaper first.

 

[goof008]

I have the same trouble in the morning and after work. My stove is in the basement and runs up over the second story roof, so it's a long run.

I place a small electric space heater in the door of the stove while I crumple my newspaper to get ready to start the fire again. It only takes a few minutes to warm the air enough to draw. If I touch the black pipe coming out it and it's warm, I go ahead and light it.

Hope it helps.