possible benefit of ethanol?
- Thread starter 066blaster
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Your missing this ain't ya'??
If you had a gallon of ethanol, mixed with a gallon of water, separated from the gas and laying in the bottom of your tank... it would be the first thing in the fuel pick-up, and your engine would likely be toast shortly after you cranked it‼
If the ethanol has separated from the gas, that means its already fully saturated (at that temperature), it can't pull any more moisture from the air... the damage has already been done and it don't matter sour owl crap whether-or-not it's still exposed to air. But it will still mix, or go into solution with free water, and that's where freeze-up (usually slush and snot) becomes a problem... something that will not happen with "real" fuel anti-freeze additives.
But I give-up from here... if you wanna' believe ethanol reduces the chances of fuel system freeze-ups... well... what do I care??
It's like I always say.
It ain't that you've been lucky so far, it's just you ain't been unlucky... yet.
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Define the component's of your "50:50." Gasoline, Water, ethanol, ethanol-water, other?
Using the proportions mentioned earlier, "dry" E10 can absorb about a tablespoon (0.5 oz) of water at 60*F.
If you have 10 gallons of dry E10 blended fuel, theoretically then that can absorb 5 oz of water (a little over half a cup (8oz)).
However, as mentioned, E10 and other fuels already contain some amount of water and therefore will be able to absorb less than the tablespoon per gallon before reaching saturation. Once saturation is reached, phase separation is likely. The ethanol-water phase contains essentially no gasoline. So maybe the answer to your question is that there will never be a pure water phase in your tank that originally had E10 fuel; it will be an ethanol-water phase.. If your fuel pickup is in this ethanol-water phase, then I think you'd run into issues.
066blaster
Addicted to ArboristSite
Ok, you said you haven't had a problem in 25 years using non E. I haven't had a problem using 10% E. Or even hear of anyone having gas line freeze up problems anymore. So what do we attribute this to. You keep explaining what could happen, but it never does. Maybe the saturation limits never occur in normal vehicle usage. Or maybe the ethanol helps with the small amount of water that does get in the tank.
I know alcohol has a cooling effect maybe it cools the gas quicker and less condensation occurs... i don't know. But it survived -20 last year so I guess I won't worry about it.
Also I hear them talk about "winter blend" at the gas station maybe there is some additive put in that helps.
So, the idea behind avoiding 10% ethanol is to avoid water at the bottom of the fuel tank where it will be picked up first and then stall the engine and make it impossible to start?
We had a punk in the neighborhood that liked to drop bottled water into people's gas tanks. Everybody blamed it on ethanol until somebody saw him doing it one day. He's now in jail.
We had a punk in the neighborhood that liked to drop bottled water into people's gas tanks. Everybody blamed it on ethanol until somebody saw him doing it one day. He's now in jail.
Essentially correct, but there is a distinction to be made.
Put X ounces of water into pure gasoline and there will be a plug of water with about the same X ounces at the bottom of your fuel tank. The plug is a "phase" separate form the gasoline.
Put X ounces of water into E10 and the ethanol component of E10 will absorb water until saturation is reached. After saturation is reached, then the water PLUS ETHANOL will will form the plug at the bottom of your tank. It's not just water. In this instance, you want to avoid the ethanol-water solution that would be at the bottom of your tank.
Putting it another way, even E85 contains gasoline. The ethanol-water solution contains essentially no gasoline.
zogger
Tree Freak
Good tip, thanks man! I am going to order some. I personally only use non E gas I can get locally, but I have no idea what the people will use on small machinery I swap away, might as well use the stuff that is alky resistant, gonna change the lines anyway.
Nearly all pump gas here in MN has some percentage of ethanol and has for many years. But yet, I have no recollection of our vehicles or those of people we know having fuel related problems. Note that I am not a proponent of mandated ethanol use for a number of reasons, I'm just trying to understand whether this is really an issue for any relatively modern vehicle (say less than 20 years old).
What I haven't seen brought up here is the lower energy density of ethanol as compared to gas. Lower MPG anyone??
What I haven't seen brought up here is the lower energy density of ethanol as compared to gas. Lower MPG anyone??
You're still missing this... ain't ya'??
The title of this thread was 'Possible benefits of ethanol' (related to fuel system freezing).
All I've done is explain how ethanol can not provide such a benefit... I ain't in any way argued it increases the chances of freeze-up (in today's vehicles, with today's improvements in fuel systems, blending, storage, transportation, etc.). The fact that neither you or I have had problems of freeze-up proves nothing... and that was my point earlier. It only proves that neither of us has had problems.
As far as what we can attribute it to... well... I answered that a few pages back... the improvements in fuel systems, fuel blending, storage, transportation, additive packages, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc...................
Oh... and the difference between "winter blend" and "summer blend" is basically the volatility of the fuel. Winter blend is more volatile... it vaporizes easier... needed for cold starts because any gasoline blend (all gasoline is a blend of petroleum distillates... plus) becomes less volatile as temperatures drop. Winter blend contains a higher percentage of the more volatile petroleum distillates.
But, that's another subject... that has little or nothing to do with this one.
Yup... compared to gasoline, ethanol is a more expensive, lower energy, higher octane fuel. It really is a horribly lousy motor fuel for anything less than specialized racing engines/fuel delivery systems... for several dozen reasons. Heck, even Brazil is moving away from it a lightening speed... the experiment didn't work.
But, that's also another subject... that has little or nothing to do with this one.
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mga
wandering
was just making a joke, man, that's all.
1project2many
ArboristSite Guru
There can be Big Problems with E10 when temperatures swing wildly. Winter blend E10 has large amount of light end HC's to help offset relatively high boiling point of E. So those light end HC's vaporize easier during injection to help the engine start when cold. But when it's hot outside they vaporize in the tank! The EVAP systems that capture vapors can easily be overwhelmed. And the supply lines can develop vapor bubbles (yes, Virginia, there is a Vapor Lock) which can cause driveability issues. If we have a run of 70-80 deg temps in mid February, I get a pile of vehicles in that don't run right. When temps cool down everything is back to normal. This problem is possible with any fuel, but it's consistent and predictable with E10.
That problem rears its ugly head in late March into mid April 'round here.
It was a huge issue back in the '80s... like a dozen cars (or more) in a day issue.
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do you also go by the name slowp???? or golugit.. or del.........your another self appointed mr important..........
I have no intention of doing this, but lets say I fill my 250 gallon farm tank with E-85, now I have 212.5 gallons of ethanol pulling moisture out of the air, wouldn't it fill the tank to overflowing?
250 gallons of E85 in a 250 gallon tank = no room for air. So no, it wouldn't fill the tank to overflowing.
Oh, you mean you to leave it uncapped? That's different. Theoretically, an the open tank would overflow if you could control for evaporation of highly volatile gasoline and the ethanol.
Also note that you get a total volume reduction when adding ethanol to water. For example, add 50 ml of water to 50 ml of ethanol and you get a total volume a few ml under 100 ml.
