Possible to add a third axle on this trailer I bought?

[JustPlainJeff]

Bumper pull trailers and personal pickups that stay in the state of Illinois are not inspected nor subject to USDOT regs. I am sure others are different. Now since I live right on the border we do have a bit different laws.

I just left IL, and I know that the trailers don't have to get "safety inspected" like trucks do each year, but are they not required to go across scales? I also don't see how anything that runs on state/federal roads isn't subject to DOT regs. Pull something through a scale (if required) and as far as I know, you're subject to have everything that's on the tires to get inspected.

 

[lwmibc]

I dislike posting negative comments, but the name 'softdown' rang a bell so I searched--this is the guy who ran out on Colorado mountain grades without knowing what his load weighed and asked why his trucks were overheating. DO NOT GIVE ADVICE--he might take it and you have lotsa lawyers down there who will look for anyone and everyone to include in the blame after something goes wrong.

"Just hauled 5 different loads using 3 different trailers and two different trucks. Got hot engine or transmission warning light at trip end every time. That with 4 core radiator and transmission cooler upgrade with deeper pan and cooling fins. How much do dry pine logs weigh - educated guess?"

This is the kind of driver that ends up like the 3 that I described above having whiplash accidents. If one doesn't know what his load weighs, he is unlikely to know or care how the unknown weight is distributed either.

Be careful with your answers.

 

[lwmibc]

I've hauled loads heavier than most, and also overloaded more than most, both that I should have been; and that I shouldn't have been, so I now that tire weight ratings are not going to always mean you can't haul an amount, but you may be pushing your luck too. DOT is quick to look at tire ratings when inspecting trucks, then at axle ratings, and I try not to mess around with that since I know better.
Don't worry, he'll just need to put 12k on the hitch, mine won't even do that, it's 2k hitch weight and 20k gross.

Here's a nice load for you, this was pretty common for a cross town load, but not one you'd want to pull across the scales. While it's totally legal to haul gross weight/permit wise, it's hard to scale it, so you'd want to loose a couple thousand pounds before going across michigan with it on a similar setup. A nice all aluminum trailer with super singles, you could put even more on it and run across the state.

Super singles?--I swear I'm seeing dual(s)--but I'm getting old. Not an issue of course; hell of a load, be a ***** to get around a switchback on a snow-covered coast mountains logging road. I'd not want to haul that anywhere but...Kansas. Rural Kansas.

 

[chipper1]

Super singles?--I swear I'm seeing dual(s)--but I'm getting old. Not an issue of course; hell of a load, be a ***** to get around a switchback on a snow-covered coast mountains logging road. I'd not want to haul that anywhere but...Kansas. Rural Kansas.

I said "A nice all aluminum trailer with super singles, you could put even more on it and run across the state." .
You ain't hauling that in the real hills. I call some of the hills here "Michigan mountains" LOL.
Not a good idea for someone who isn't familiar with multi axle trailers to haul them at all, that setup was totaled with a 60k load on it on the first curve down the rd from where I was loading in the picture(about a 1/2 mile away). The guy was trained for 6 weeks and then they sent him out with a light load, he had the axles all down(not necessary), and/or too much pressure in them, so when he went into the first curve the trailer went in a straight line, while the truck went left, until it couldn't, then it got drug backwards into the curve and off the rd with the trailer. Those antilock brakes work great, and he didn't stop very fast, it was a nasty mess, wish I had pictures. The driver had a great view of the trailer, but couldn't see where it was going or what it was going to hit, nice way to mess up your pants first thing in the morning .

 

[lwmibc]

I said "A nice all aluminum trailer with super singles, you could put even more on it and run across the state." .
You ain't hauling that in the real hills. I call some of the hills here "Michigan mountains" LOL.
Not a good idea for someone who isn't familiar with multi axle trailers to haul them at all, that setup was totaled with a 60k load on it on the first curve down the rd from where I was loading in the picture(about a 1/2 mile away). The guy was trained for 6 weeks and then they sent him out with a light load, he had the axles all down(not necessary), and/or too much pressure in them, so when he went into the first curve the trailer went in a straight line, while the truck went left, until it couldn't, then it got drug backwards into the curve and off the rd with the trailer. Those antilock brakes work great, and he didn't stop very fast, it was a nasty mess, wish I had pictures. The driver had a great view of the trailer, but couldn't see where it was going or what it was going to hit, nice way to mess up your pants first thing in the morning .

You paint quite the picture. Not pretty, but 'I see it'. Always funny afterwards, if no-one got hurt. Bent tin and busted fibreglass is 'learning curve'--although I did get to retirement without putting a scratch on a logging truck.

Incidentally our weight standard up here is calculated based on 100 kg per cm of tire width on the road. So an 11R24.5 has a measured little less than 9" or 23 cm of rubber width on the road; times 100 kg is just under 2300 kg. If there are 4 of them on an axle, that is 9,200 kg (the actual official number is 9,100 kg, but it's all based on that 100 kg per cm of rubber).

Then they reduce the amount per axle in axle combinations depending on their separation (blacktop rebound time considerations) such that normal tandem axles are 17,600 kg not 18,200, and tri-axles reduced a bit more.

So pulling into a scale with the trailer in your pics--I would expect to be there 4 hours while they tried to figure that one out. Wondering if your rules are the same.

 

[chipper1]

You paint quite the picture. Not pretty, but 'I see it'. Always funny afterwards, if no-one got hurt. Bent tin and busted fibreglass is 'learning curve'--although I did get to retirement without putting a scratch on a logging truck.

Incidentally our weight standard up here is calculated based on 100 kg per cm of tire width on the road. So an 11R24.5 has a measured little less than 9" or 23 cm of rubber width on the road; times 100 kg is just under 2300 kg. If there are 4 of them on an axle, that is 9,200 kg (the actual official number is 9,100 kg, but it's all based on that 100 kg per cm of rubber).

Then they reduce the amount per axle in axle combinations depending on their separation (blacktop rebound time considerations) such that normal tandem axles are 17,600 kg not 18,200, and tri-axles reduced a bit more.

So pulling into a scale with the trailer in your pics--I would expect to be there 4 hours while they tried to figure that one out. Wondering if your rules are the same.

Similar to here.
It can take some time at the scales, but the weigh masters(scale operators who are also state police), are very familiar with axle weights here in michigan(since there are 10's of thousands of multi axle trucks here if not more. They can be gracious, but once the company you drive for gets a black mark, count on getting pulled around back on a normal basis. Loading, I just push everything forward as far as possible without overloading the drives(we have gauges on them to see the pressure), and if I get the front right and the tires look good out back, I'm good. If I'm light on the drives with a heavy load, then I'm heavy out back, sometimes you have to load that way because you have one skid on the tail that gets dropped before you leave town, if you shift everything forward to be legal on your axles, then pull the weight off the back, you won't have a way to balance the load(you could add more air to the spread axle on the front of the trailer, but if you get pulled over or into the scale your gonna have issues. You know, it's all precision guesswork lol.
Here's another 8-axle I drove, it's a little easier to gauge how the axles are set up with the covered wagon/side kit setup as the panels are all 4'.

 

[lwmibc]

Similar to here.
It can take some time at the scales, but the weigh masters(scale operators who are also state police), are very familiar with axle weights here in michigan(since there are 10's of thousands of multi axle trucks here if not more. They can be gracious, but once the company you drive for gets a black mark, count on getting pulled around back on a normal basis. Loading, I just push everything forward as far as possible without overloading the drives(we have gauges on them to see the pressure), and if I get the front right and the tires look good out back, I'm good. If I'm light on the drives with a heavy load, then I'm heavy out back, sometimes you have to load that way because you have one skid on the tail that gets dropped before you leave town, if you shift everything forward to be legal on your axles, then pull the weight off the back, you won't have a way to balance the load(you could add more air to the spread axle on the front of the trailer, but if you get pulled over or into the scale your gonna have issues. You know, it's all precision guesswork lol.
Here's another 8-axle I drove, it's a little easier to gauge how the axles are set up with the covered wagon/side kit setup as the panels are all 4'.

I admit--radius of turn still has me thinking 'Kansas'.

 

[lwmibc]

I admit--radius of turn still has me thinking 'Kansas'.

Makes me think of something else--do you adjust tire pressures to shift weight on the scales? I'm betting the answer is a closely guarded secret 'yes', and everyone in time figures out just how to make it legal.

 

[chipper1]

I admit--radius of turn still has me thinking 'Kansas'.

It's a 50' trailer, but a short wheelbase tractor and with the axles up you can turn pretty tight turns, but don't try turning tight when you have 100k plus on the deck on a Kansas hot asphalt road or parking lot.

Makes me think of something else--do you adjust tire pressures to shift weight on the scales? I'm betting the answer is a closely guarded secret 'yes', and everyone in time figures out just how to make it legal.

Some guys adjust pressures on their axles(not the tires if you will) like you're saying, but not really on a setup like this or on michigan scales. The 3 and 4 axle trucks that drive the turnpike/toll roads, they have extra tanks and do so sketchy stuff to avoid extra fees. I've also seen extra curtains/dividers inside the trailers to hide the coils of steel so it looked like they were loaded legal. Some sketchy stuff that happens out there for sure.

 

[lwmibc]

It's a 50' trailer, but a short wheelbase tractor and with the axles up you can turn pretty tight turns, but don't try turning tight when you have 100k plus on the deck on a Kansas hot asphalt road or parking lot.


Some guys adjust pressures on their axles(not the tires if you will) like you're saying, but not really on a setup like this or on michigan scales. The 3 and 4 axle trucks that drive the turnpike/toll roads, they have extra tanks and do so sketchy stuff to avoid extra fees. I've also seen extra curtains/dividers inside the trailers to hide the coils of steel so it looked like they were loaded legal. Some sketchy stuff that happens out there for sure.

Thanks for all that, I learned something about a very specific part of hauling. And thankfully I'll never HAVE to know and apply it anymore.

 

[Wombat Ranger]

This is how I used to haul an 18klb machine on a lunette. Safely and legally. Behind a "pickup."


See where the axles are? Tandem 12's by the way. That was a handy trailer. GTW was around 25k. Truck was 12,500 with that body.


But I still did not really like it. So now I haul it like this.



Same truck, same machine, different work body, different trailer. 100% worth it.

Although I do wish the blue trailer had tandem 15's instead of 10k's. Because I keep finding myself needing them.

This one was a 30k+ machine. And my truck/trailer combo scales over 18k empty. Everything works fine though. No problems going or stopping.

 

[Bill G]

The key thing is AXLE PLACEMENT. That bumper pull had correct axle placement to allow a decreased toungue weight. The trailer in question posted in the beginning does not, It forces weight on the vehicle pulling it. I have preached bumper weight but a few do not seem to agree

 

[northmanlogging]

Forgot to answer everything. I bought it for my skid steer but I'd like to be able to move my 21,000 lb mulcher with it. I know that exceeds things due to trailer weight but dually trucks can handle a lot of weight riding on the rear. The genersl purpose of a dually - more or less.

I did buy a broken 2010 Freightliner Cascadia with DD13. Someday that should be available for heavy hauling. Some day.

Again, if you don't have a CDL you are playing with fire, the fine for DRIVING ANY COMBINATION OVER 26,001# GVWR is $10000 and lose your license for a year, and never be allowed to have a CDL, do it again you never drive again and get a year in prison. Pull your head out while you still have some sense.

Same goes for adding an axle, Yes you could easily add an axle, to just about any trailer, but your GVWR goes from 26000 to 32000 and now you need a CDL, not to mention you will be dumb enough to put that 21k machine on a 5k trailer with an 8k truck, do the math chuckles never mind your GVWR you are now over the weight limit of your trucks braking ability
You've been told, numerous times on numerous threads, what you are attempting has laws that are written in blood, they are there to prevent idiots such as yourself from getting innocent people killed.
Again, its not about how much your truck can pull, its about stopping it and controlling it 34000# at 65mph does not move the same as 26k, its a whole new world and your pick em up truck is simply not up to it.

 

[northmanlogging]

This is how I used to haul an 18klb machine on a lunette. Safely and legally. Behind a "pickup."
View attachment 1014735
View attachment 1014736
See where the axles are? Tandem 12's by the way. That was a handy trailer. GTW was around 25k. Truck was 12,500 with that body.


But I still did not really like it. So now I haul it like this.

View attachment 1014737

Same truck, same machine, different work body, different trailer. 100% worth it.

Although I do wish the blue trailer had tandem 15's instead of 10k's. Because I keep finding myself needing them.
View attachment 1014738
This one was a 30k+ machine. And my truck/trailer combo scales over 18k empty. Everything works fine though. No problems going or stopping.

I assume you have a cdl? if not read the above.
That said, to go to bigger axels 10k to 15k you are pretty much looking at air brake systems, though there are a few exceptions, but if you want to go 30k on tandems, you might as well go the whole hog and get 34K tandems with air brakes and be done with it.
(no real edit, I posted without writting anything somehow?)

 

[Wombat Ranger]

Again, if you don't have a CDL you are playing with fire, the fine for DRIVING ANY COMBINATION OVER 26,001# GVWR is $10000 and lose your license for a year, and never be allowed to have a CDL, do it again you never drive again and get a year in prison. Pull your head out while you still have some sense.

^^^These conversations always devolve to this. Someone forcefully preaching their specific state's enforcement policies as if every state is the same. It is up to each state to determine when they consider a combination commercial.

I assume you have a cdl? if not read the above.
That said, to go to bigger axels 10k to 15k you are pretty much looking at air brake systems, though there are a few exceptions, but if you want to go 30k on tandems, you might as well go the whole hog and get 34K tandems with air brakes and be done with it.
(no real edit, I posted without writting anything somehow?)

Yes I am Class A licensed. 15k axles with electric brakes are out there, not that hard to find. Instead I've bought a 40' with triple 12's because it was more economical. But for what I do in the mountains here in NW MT a shorter one with tandem 15's would really be the dream. For my use.

 

[northmanlogging]

^^^These conversations always devolve to this. Someone forcefully preaching their specific state's enforcement policies as if every state is the same. It is up to each state to determine when they consider a combination commercial.


Yes I am Class A licensed. 15k axles with electric brakes are out there, not that hard to find. Instead I've bought a 40' with triple 12's because it was more economical. But for what I do in the mountains here in NW MT a shorter one with tandem 15's would really be the dream. For my use.

the GVWR and CDL thing is federal.
there are differences from state to state as far as legal axel weights, but the CDL thing is a federal law. Hence why you still can't smoke the wacky cabbage even though its legal here.

What you seem to be missing, is that our boy Softdown repeatedly asks for advice on his ill advised adventures, then continues to do some reallllllly sketchy and dangerous stuff, because he already knows better. Eventually its going to catch up to him and he'll end up dead or in prison, shouting the whole way about being right and ingsoc or some other utter nonsense.

and yeah, i'm aware that 15k elec brake axles are a thing, I just question why bother. Partly its my distrust for elec brakes, once you go air elec/surge/hydro brakes are so lame lol. The elec versions especially, always seems to be something wrong with them, wiring, bad ground, bad magnet, thin shoes, on and on and on. Air works, or it don't no in between unless you're being reallly dumb and disable them or refuse to do the bare minimum of maintenance

 

[Bill G]

I just left IL, and I know that the trailers don't have to get "safety inspected" like trucks do each year, but are they not required to go across scales? I also don't see how anything that runs on state/federal roads isn't subject to DOT regs. Pull something through a scale (if required) and as far as I know, you're subject to have everything that's on the tires to get inspected.

In going back and reading how I wrote that I can see how it was not clear at all. I wrote it incorrectly. What I meant was pickup trucks and trailers that stay with the state of Illinois are not subject to the USDOt licensing system and reporting sustem. We do not have to display a USDOT number and name on the door. We do not have to keep a log book. We are of course subject to the laws and I have been run down but it was by Iowa DOT. As for scales. I have never known any private person (Illinois licensed) with a pickup going across the scales in Illinois. Go across the state line and everything changes. I have a few not so funny stories on the subject.

 

[camel2019]

If it’s 8x6.5 bolt pattern then most 3/4 or 1 ton rims will work to switch from the 16.5. Only 16.5 tires I can find are for motor homes(only reason I know is because I bought a new set on rims for my dually cheap)and Humvee both useless for this application.

 

[Bill G]

If it’s 8x6.5 bolt pattern then most 3/4 or 1 ton rims will work to switch from the 16.5. Only 16.5 tires I can find are for motor homes and Humvee both useless for this application.

Well I am not sure what 3/4 and 1 ton rims you are talking about. The bolt patteern is just one variable you must also consider centers. An example is a late 90s Ford 1 ton and a early 2000's Dodge 3/4 share the same bolt patter but the DO NOT interchange. You need to consider hub piloted versus lug piloted rims. Yes that can be overcame with grinding but must still be considered

 

[camel2019]

Well I am not sure what 3/4 and 1 ton rims you are talking about. The bolt patteern is just one variable you must also consider centers. An example is a late 90s Ford 1 ton and a early 2000's Dodge 3/4 share the same bolt patter but the DO NOT interchange. You need to consider hub piloted versus lug piloted rims. Yes that can be overcame with grinding but must still be considered

That’s why I bought a Chevy can fit all the big 3 rims till they started going with odd patterns fords need the little stud removed. But as long as the hub bore fits it should work. And then their should be plenty of 16 inch trailer tires with the right load range available to the OP. As far as adding another axle dexter should have something.