Professionals?

[ropensaddle]

I climbed semi pro in 82 and started full timey in 83 but never with a ditty bag, btw the photo reminds me of a goob I once knew:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Did my first for-hire take down in '87 (while still in the USMC) for an officer who knew I had some schooling, and had seen my gaffing up trees to set up antennas and run comm-wire.

Made a little money off and on till I got out, then did tree work for a few different companies as stop-gap employment after getting out. I lied to myself that I did not want to do this for the rest of my life, thought office jobs were it.

Fell into a groundie job with in 93-94 for a local branch of TG-CL and never looked back, I was running the crew by the summer, and the little division by winter.

Stayed there till the end of the decade, until I finally came to the conclusion that they were making up their own "science" to justify their business model. Then I went solo in 99. Learned a little here and there until I am at the point now where I realize I do not really know that much; and most people know even less.

 

[ropensaddle]

Did my first for-hire take down in '87 (while still in the USMC) for an officer who knew I had some schooling, and had seen my gaffing up trees to set up antennas and run comm-wire.

Made a little money off and on till I got out, then did tree work for a few different companies as stop-gap employment after getting out. I lied to myself that I did not want to do this for the rest of my life, thought office jobs were it.

Fell into a groundie job with in 93-94 for a local branch of TG-CL and never looked back, I was running the crew by the summer, and the little division by winter.

Stayed there till the end of the decade, until I finally came to the conclusion that they were making up their own "science" to justify their business model. Then I went solo in 99. Learned a little here and there until I am at the point now where I realize I do not really know that much; and most people know even less.

You keep telling yourself that but we know you know allot. I do understand the humble attitude and do also understand the amount of study required to master every aspect of arboriculture. It makes you become your worst critic but in no way do you not know much JPS.

 

[TreeClimber57]

I am at the point now where I realize I do not really know that much; and most people know even less.

Ain't that the truth! Older you get.. or the longer you do this the less you know it seems

 

[TreeAce]

I read somwhere once that Einstien was quoted as saying "The more I learn the less I know". Not sayn he "invented" it but he musta believed it. Call me an online brown noser or whatever but I can say that I tend to read any post by JPS carefully and often twice. An open minded person can learn alot from many people around here. But some more than others.

 

[squad143]

This is not my main source of income. Do I consider myself a professional? Yes. Still learning and always will be.

 

[tree md]

Self employed climber since 94... Been climbing since 91. This is my sole income and has been for 20 years this year.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

:blush::blush:

Thank you, thankyou verymuch.

I do mean it to sound humble, because it is how I feel about the enormity of the task. It is also what motivates me to do more, even though I do not see a whole lot of profit in the endeavor. Most guys are happy to pick my brain and carry on, which is why I may tend to sound abrupt during some phone calls from members.

There are a few here who can attest to how much I will open up after even a small check arrives in the mail, though

FWIW I continue to post here to "keep my knife sharp" so to speak, but I have taken to answering PM's and phone calls with general vagueries and suggestions to search my previous posts.

I am available for consulting gigs, when not in school; and a couple of you have me on retainer. Ask around, I come rather cheap for the results rendered.

Dave B. once put it "I did call you a Fart Smeller, but you are a Smart Feller too!" :Laugh: He paid me pretty darn well, plus two meals a day.

 

[Job Corps Tree]

Professionals

We need an up to date Poll on this. Last one it was about 1 in 75 or more1 tree guy and 75 of something else.
I was for 20 years but the last 11 years I am Teaching it, Is this realy the same as someone that Climbs as a Job everyday??

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I was for 20 years but the last 11 years I am Teaching it, Is this realy the same as someone that Climbs as a Job everyday??

I read it as how many of us are professional tree workers, whether it is logger, arbo or other it does not matter. Some of us teach school, some work in saw shops, I think most of us are pro's in that respect.

If you want to break it down, how many catagories are there? Logger, tree cutter, arborist, Cimber, saw shop......

 

[TreeClimber57]

I read it as how many of us are professional tree workers, whether it is logger, arbo or other it does not matter. Some of us teach school, some work in saw shops, I think most of us are pro's in that respect.

Well most look at "professional" as somebody getting paid to do the work.

I have an Amateurs Radio License (Ham Operator)... it is called amateur simply because there is no pay for it.. but there are licensing requirements, and regulations. In fact I know at least two individuals who have spent well over $100K on their "hobby". A couple of the otters I know are engineers, one is a medical doctor. Point being, these folks in many cases are dedicated, well trained and in some case better radio operators than some who actually get paid to do it for a living. Reason.. well some who are paid to do it simply view it as a job to pay the bills.. they put in 40 hours a week and go home to what they really love. The amateur radio operators on the other hand take their free time, their own money.. and invest into it.. they in some cases spend more than 40 hours a week at it.. and certainly never end their education and learning.

Point being.. one is doing it to pay the bills and is only as good as they need to be. The other, while not paid for it, strives to better themselves on a daily basis.

Moral of story.. being paid for the job does NOT make you good.. being a so called "professional" .. if doing it full time as a paid job is the criteria does NOT make you good.. it is the love of the work, the desire to better oneself that is what makes you GOOD.. And if you have that.. while you may not be at the top of the list today as far as skills.. you will continue to strive to get better on an ongoing basis.. and will over time become as good as anybody in your field.

The question then is WHY do you do this.. is it to put money on the table.. or because YOU love to do it.. day in and day out.. through thick and thin.. the good days and the crap days..

Just my 2 cents

 

[beowulf343]

I do mean it to sound humble, because it is how I feel about the enormity of the task. It is also what motivates me to do more, even though I do not see a whole lot of profit in the endeavor. Most guys are happy to pick my brain and carry on, which is why I may tend to sound abrupt during some phone calls from members.

There are a few here who can attest to how much I will open up after even a small check arrives in the mail, though

Jeez, can we get our lips off your cheeks for maybe just a minute??

This is my problem with "experienced" treemen these days. They like to preach you need more education, you need more education, you need more education. Ok, fine, why do i now have to pay you to get this education that you and guys like you tell me i so desperately need? What exactly can you teach me that would be worth paying for? About all i've seen is if i need to order something from stp, you'd be the guy to call. You guys and your "i'm not going to teach you anything till the check is in the mail" attitude is getting out of hand. My teachers never charged me for their time, they were happy to spend a little time teaching an enthusiastic youngster how to carry on in a job they loved. I've never charged someone to get together or for advice ( it's so simple, i can't even send you an email with a question and expect an answer unless a check is on the way?) How is this good for advancing knowledge. So you supposedly know something about trees that no other arborist knows, and now it's time to cash in? I'm tired of going to lectures or workshops by arborists who aren't coming up with anything new and having to pay a couple hundred dollars. Why do these guys, why do you, think you have to walk away with a couple grand just to flap your lips? Is it the ego boost?

Now i have no problem paying someone for their time, or paying gas money, or whatever. But don't you think it's getting ridiculous when you won't even answer an email unless money is forthcoming? Pathetic, you and your ilk are an insult to those who actually love the work and are willing to share their knowledge without expecting a huge monetary gain.

 

[TreeClimber57]

We need an up to date Poll on this. Last one it was about 1 in 75 or more1 tree guy and 75 of something else.
I was for 20 years but the last 11 years I am Teaching it, Is this realy the same as someone that Climbs as a Job everyday??

If you still can do it.. if you know what you teach and are not just a somebody who learned from a book.. then I would say yes

First of all.. in teaching I would think you do get some hands on.. and secondly.. without teachers we would never bring this profession to a higher level.

 

[TreeClimber57]

They like to preach you need more education, you need more education, you need more education. Ok, fine, why do i now have to pay you to get this education that you and guys like you tell me i so desperately need?

Guess it depends on what is being taught, and by whom.

But.. I know that I pay for our education, and it ain't cheap.. Frankly some of it is not more than common sense but covers the legal aspect of the fact that you had formal training..

 

[beowulf343]

"Formal training" is now a requirement to be a treeman?

This is laughable, so next time i'm looking for a climbing job, i can put down "i paid jps to learn how to order clothes online" and that will make me more attractive to prospective employers? They don't know or care who jps is or what i paid him to do for me.
So i took a day long course from someone about cranes and treework? Do you think that's going to mean more than the fact that i've worked with a crane every day for years?
Listen, being taught is all well and good, but around here, experience is most important. Someone who's been climbing every day for years with no accidents is going to get the job before someone who's been to alot of classes.

 

[ropensaddle]

If you still can do it.. if you know what you teach and are not just a somebody who learned from a book.. then I would say yes

First of all.. in teaching I would think you do get some hands on.. and secondly.. without teachers we would never bring this profession to a higher level.

I can vouch for Job corp though he really don't need me to. He knows more about different climbing systems than most I know.

 

[beowulf343]

But.. I know that I pay for our education, and it ain't cheap.. Frankly some of it is not more than common sense but covers the legal aspect of the fact that you had formal training..

It is funny that someone so keen on formal training and regulation isn't even yet tcia accredited yet. But leaving that aside, what makes jps's training formal? The fact that you paid for it?
Is he a licensed or certified teacher? Since it's so important to so many here, is he a ca or a bcma? Is any governing body outside of the couple hundred people that know him even going to recognize his training? I mean i may have to pay 140 to go to treeseer's little event, but at least that is recognized as training by the isa. How is jps's training formal in your book, and how is it going to cover your butt in a legal situation. It's like me saying, "yeah, i went to a weekend seminar put on by bubba down the road." It doesn't mean a whole lot.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Jeez, can we get our lips off your cheeks for maybe just a minute??

Hee hee! you so funny! What got your undies in such a bunch?

This is my problem with "experienced" treemen these days. They like to preach you need more education, you need more education, you need more education. Ok, fine, why do i now have to pay you to get this education that you and guys like you tell me i so desperately need?

I have invested a lot of time and money into putting my knowledge base together

What exactly can you teach me that would be worth paying for? About all i've seen is if i need to order something from stp, you'd be the guy to call.

then ignore me :dunno:

You guys and your "i'm not going to teach you anything till the check is in the mail" attitude is getting out of hand. My teachers never charged me for their time, they were happy to spend a little time teaching an enthusiastic youngster how to carry on in a job they loved.

So you just took from them and never gave anything back, or were you working for them and learning OJT? I assume so, since you are a young climber. I might not have anything to offer you, since you work for someone else. Maybe I could in a few years when you break off and start your own biz. When I am working with enthusiastic young climbers, it is usually the boss who calls me in to work with them to improve their productivity.

I've never charged someone to get together or for advice ( it's so simple, i can't even send you an email with a question and expect an answer unless a check is on the way?)

Ask it in the forum if you want free advice, if I any of us want to answer then we will. Why are you such a cheapskate as to ask someone to coach/mentor you for the love of it?

Why should anyone answer questions from all and sundry that come out of the blue? Why should the NOT be something for me out of the deal?

If someone calls me, during dinner or while I am watching TV with my wife and dogs, to ask about a problem they have with a very important client; why should I not expect to act as contracting consultant vs a free knowledge base?

How is this good for advancing knowledge. So you supposedly know something about trees that no other arborist knows, and now it's time to cash in?

Why is it such a bad thing for a person who has spent decades improving a wide set of skills, experiance and knowledge, to ask for a fee to pass it on to another for-hire professional? I did not come to the conclusion that I have knowledge of value because I thought it up, but because people have told me that they have improved their operations from what I have said and written.

I'm tired of going to lectures or workshops by arborists who aren't coming up with anything new and having to pay a couple hundred dollars. Why do these guys, why do you, think you have to walk away with a couple grand just to flap your lips? Is it the ego boost?

My ego is boosted by people saying "thank you, you helped me." I put gas in my tank and food on the table by getting money from other people. Some of my knowledge I got from other people, some through reading, some through experiance. I have spent a lot of time ordering it and making more useful. Maybe it is not useful for you, so what?

Now i have no problem paying someone for their time, or paying gas money, or whatever. But don't you think it's getting ridiculous when you won't even answer an email unless money is forthcoming? Pathetic, you and your ilk are an insult to those who actually love the work and are willing to share their knowledge without expecting a huge monetary gain.

So you will take a late-night call from a home-owner who is asking for the best way to trim their trees away from the house? Is there any difference between your scenario mine? I do not understand why I should be an altruistic mentor to everyone who asks if part of my business model is consulting to other companies.

As for giving to young climbers...I do that, not as often as I used to. I do not get approached as much, and I usually want to work in my trees or a pro bono job for a little old lady. Many of them shy off at working for free for some reason.

Now, since I put forth a reasoned and and reasonable argument for my position, why don't you tell us why you should not be taken for a pathetic, snot-nosed punk who has gotten a wee bit big for his britches since he has worked under a crane a few times?

I do give you credit for not always telling us that you are Gods gift to the tree world, but I do not see where you come off being disrespectful to some one who is more knowledgeable and experienced then you. Especially since I cannot recall ever ranting about you in such a manner.

Or should I have flamed in response?

 

[beowulf343]

So you just took from them and never gave anything back, or were you working for them and learning OJT? I assume so, since you are a young climber. I might not have anything to offer you, since you work for someone else. Maybe I could in a few years when you break off and start your own biz. When I am working with enthusiastic young climbers, it is usually the boss who calls me in to work with them to improve their productivity.

You may be right, i probably did take from them and didn't give anything back. But they offered. I'd have old timers tell me "why don't you come over this weekend and i'll show you a couple things to help you out monday." I'd offer to pay and they'd turn it down. Did you pay everyone who ever taught you something? If i asked one of them something, yeah, they wouldn't drop everything for me, but they'd get back to me and go over it. My problem is it seems nowdays if you ask someone if they can show you the basics of srt or something, they'll ask you for a couple hundred.
As for the "young climber" thing, i've got almost as many years in as you.

Ask it in the forum if you want free advice, if I any of us want to answer then we will. Why are you such a cheapskate as to ask someone to coach/mentor you for the love of it?

I did have a mentor and i do mentor someone now in treework-no money exchanges hands. Professional courtesy?

Why is it such a bad thing for a person who has spent decades improving a wide set of skills, experiance and knowledge, to ask for a fee to pass it on to another for-hire professional? I did not come to the conclusion that I have knowledge of value because I thought it up, but because people have told me that they have improved their operations from what I have said and written.

You haven't spent decades in this field. I don't see the guys who have spent decades in the field asking for donations for their advice, although i'd be willing to pay if they asked for it. Maybe that's what gets me about you-you just expect to be paid for the advice. I'm really sorry jps, but you aren't a jerry berenak to me.

Now, since I put forth a reasoned and and reasonable argument for my position, why don't you tell us why you should not be taken for a pathetic, snot-nosed punk who has gotten a wee bit big for his britches since he has worked under a crane a few times?

If that's the way you feel about me, i'm fine with that. If you are the new mod, feel free to ban me. It just makes me wonder about the direction our field is heading in, when a guy can't get an answer from an experienced man in the field without having to pay for it.

So you will take a late-night call from a home-owner who is asking for the best way to trim their trees away from the house? Is there any difference between your scenario mine? I do not understand why I should be an altruistic mentor to everyone who asks if part of my business model is consulting to other companies.

As for giving to young climbers...I do that, not as often as I used to. I do not get approached as much, and I usually want to work in my trees or a pro bono job for a little old lady. Many of them shy off at working for free for some reason.

I'm not talking about homeowners asking for advice, i'm talking about one treeclimber to another. It's not surprising you don't get approached by young climbers, expecting to get paid for the advice.

I do give you credit for not always telling us that you are Gods gift to the tree world, but I do not see where you come off being disrespectful to some one who is more knowledgeable and experienced then you.

And you assume you are more knowledgeable and experienced why?? Because i don't get paid to dispense advice? How is one peer questioning another on the way he does things disrespectful? So you expect to be paid for your advice, i don't think that's a good road to start down in this field, just because i don't agree with you it's disrespectful. Thin skinned.

I guess all i'm saying is, what can you teach me that i can't get from the forty year climber i go to work with every day, for free, or the multi-millionaire tree business owner i see in the office every day, or the bcma that's on staff? Brag on yourself a bit, what makes you the man i need to pay?

 

[TreeClimber57]

It doesn't mean a whole lot.

And if it does not then maybe not worth paying for.