Pruning Pines
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MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
Sure! Just don't hurt yourself doing it. Respect the branch collar, and don't be shy about calling an expert when the branches get to high. DON'T work from a ladder, and DON'T climb the tree yourself!
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
No pitch, no paint, no nothing! Just make clean cuts, and not too flush - especially pines. Respect Yo Branch Collar!
The type of trimming you are referring to can be done anytime - Enjoy!
The type of trimming you are referring to can be done anytime - Enjoy!
Sherrill called this site "on tree pruning hands down": Pruning Cuts Respecting Branch Collar for Best Healing
The warmer it is, the quicker ya want to move the cut wood/branches, so as to not let the sap leak all out and all over everything.
The warmer it is, the quicker ya want to move the cut wood/branches, so as to not let the sap leak all out and all over everything.
Kneejerk Bombas
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You can prune the lower limbs from your mature trees, but it would be best not to.
For many trees having the lower limbs removed marks the beginning of the end of the tree’s life.
Typically, the limbs are removed because it's hard to mow under, so it gets raised six feet. The ground underneath is uneven so soil is tilled in to create a planting bed for new grass. Still too much shade, raise it up six more feet to get sun in there. Now for weekly mowing and the mandatory ramming of the mower into the trunk and soil compaction that goes with it. There will still be grass growing around the base, so get out the weedwacker and girdle the tree while you trim the grass.
Some other things are going on at the same time, the trunk of the tree now fully exposed to hot sunlight and can get sunscald, devastating to a mature tree, especially at the base. The soil will no longer be shaded now so it will get hot and dry which is very bad for roots and the soil microorganisms that used to live there. In their place will be grass, a very aggressive competitor for nutrients and water.
You will be radically changing the environment the tree is growing in. At the same time you are removing live healthy limbs, which is obviously bad for the tree. This new environment is also inviting to increased foot traffic and even cars, trailers and machinery. It's getting less and less like the forest floor around your trees.
If you must trim, do only what you have to, best if done when it's cool out (jan or feb).
Could you achieve your goals by shortening the limbs part way?
Remember, there is no reason to trim a tree all the way around just because you need clearance on one side. Only trim what you have to.
Just to recap, Raising tree crowns cause the following bad effects:
1. Foliage removal
2. Increased soil compaction
3. Decrease benificial microorganisms
4. Increased soil temp. extremes
5. Lower soil nutriant levels
6. Lower soil water
7. Increased chance of sunscald
8. Increased chance of trunk injury
9. Decreased trunk taper
10. Open wounds/ decay
11. Increased competition from plants
12. Decreased organic matter
For many trees having the lower limbs removed marks the beginning of the end of the tree’s life.
Typically, the limbs are removed because it's hard to mow under, so it gets raised six feet. The ground underneath is uneven so soil is tilled in to create a planting bed for new grass. Still too much shade, raise it up six more feet to get sun in there. Now for weekly mowing and the mandatory ramming of the mower into the trunk and soil compaction that goes with it. There will still be grass growing around the base, so get out the weedwacker and girdle the tree while you trim the grass.
Some other things are going on at the same time, the trunk of the tree now fully exposed to hot sunlight and can get sunscald, devastating to a mature tree, especially at the base. The soil will no longer be shaded now so it will get hot and dry which is very bad for roots and the soil microorganisms that used to live there. In their place will be grass, a very aggressive competitor for nutrients and water.
You will be radically changing the environment the tree is growing in. At the same time you are removing live healthy limbs, which is obviously bad for the tree. This new environment is also inviting to increased foot traffic and even cars, trailers and machinery. It's getting less and less like the forest floor around your trees.
If you must trim, do only what you have to, best if done when it's cool out (jan or feb).
Could you achieve your goals by shortening the limbs part way?
Remember, there is no reason to trim a tree all the way around just because you need clearance on one side. Only trim what you have to.
Just to recap, Raising tree crowns cause the following bad effects:
1. Foliage removal
2. Increased soil compaction
3. Decrease benificial microorganisms
4. Increased soil temp. extremes
5. Lower soil nutriant levels
6. Lower soil water
7. Increased chance of sunscald
8. Increased chance of trunk injury
9. Decreased trunk taper
10. Open wounds/ decay
11. Increased competition from plants
12. Decreased organic matter
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
Mike, all yur points are valid, for shure, I just think the guy wants to mow his lawn in peace.
SilverBlue
Addicted to ArboristSite
VERY well said Mike.
M.D. Vaden
vadenphotography.com
Pruning with a ladder is okay if you think about what will occur, and its the right ladder.
Orchard ladders are designed to prune with a ladder, at the height to which the ladder was built.
A 10' orchard ladder is for 10' or what you can reach.
These ladders have safety labels, indicating level ground, and use on soil, not hard surface.
If you cut a large branch, it could swing and knock you over.
But a little branch, like 5 to 10 pounds, can be handled easily.
A pole pruner can cut up higher. But some cuts can't be made right with a pole pruner, especially if you want to cut twigs off.
If you don't cut lower limbs, and then they shade out later, the cut can be much larger later. So if this is in a grove, it may be best to cut now.
Leaving too many limbs low in a landscape decreases air circulation, and can increase fungus in the entire landscape.
That's why the best pruning people have backgrounds in landscape design, not just arboriculture. Each plant can affect a dozen others.
Pruning is not for taking care of a tree. Its for taking care of that tree, the surrounding landscape, foot and vehicle traffic, and safety needs.
As for perfect time - Dr. Alex Shigo in A NEW TREE BIOLOGY wrote that right after leaves come on, and right after falling, is the ideal as a general rule of thumb. That phrase is geared visually toward deciduous, but implied to most trees.
But he also wrote on the next page that pruning can be done anytime of the year.
In other words, if you want the extreme perfect world, don't do it anytime.
But, if you look around, most tree professionals are working almost all year.
Orchard ladders are designed to prune with a ladder, at the height to which the ladder was built.
A 10' orchard ladder is for 10' or what you can reach.
These ladders have safety labels, indicating level ground, and use on soil, not hard surface.
If you cut a large branch, it could swing and knock you over.
But a little branch, like 5 to 10 pounds, can be handled easily.
A pole pruner can cut up higher. But some cuts can't be made right with a pole pruner, especially if you want to cut twigs off.
If you don't cut lower limbs, and then they shade out later, the cut can be much larger later. So if this is in a grove, it may be best to cut now.
Leaving too many limbs low in a landscape decreases air circulation, and can increase fungus in the entire landscape.
That's why the best pruning people have backgrounds in landscape design, not just arboriculture. Each plant can affect a dozen others.
Pruning is not for taking care of a tree. Its for taking care of that tree, the surrounding landscape, foot and vehicle traffic, and safety needs.
As for perfect time - Dr. Alex Shigo in A NEW TREE BIOLOGY wrote that right after leaves come on, and right after falling, is the ideal as a general rule of thumb. That phrase is geared visually toward deciduous, but implied to most trees.
But he also wrote on the next page that pruning can be done anytime of the year.
In other words, if you want the extreme perfect world, don't do it anytime.
But, if you look around, most tree professionals are working almost all year.
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
After the hollow basswood thread I'm VERY happy to agree totally with Mike.:angel:
His reasons for leaving lower branches are excellent. robinm needs to look way down the road to where his "limbing up", as the treecudders in the south call it, will lead. Poorer tree health and a lot more lawn to mow--who needs that?
MB/Voodoo Child, yes if you're going to prune, find the collar. Just don't transform your landscape forever without thinking it over. Better to control rangy growth by nipping the tips with a hand pruner than slicing wood that you'll miss later.
His reasons for leaving lower branches are excellent. robinm needs to look way down the road to where his "limbing up", as the treecudders in the south call it, will lead. Poorer tree health and a lot more lawn to mow--who needs that?
MB/Voodoo Child, yes if you're going to prune, find the collar. Just don't transform your landscape forever without thinking it over. Better to control rangy growth by nipping the tips with a hand pruner than slicing wood that you'll miss later.
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
M.D. Vaden
vadenphotography.com
For GUY:
Dr. Shigo was not referring to just dead wood. Since he added some precautions, those precautions would be irrelevant if only dead wood was removed.
As for disease, yes, many are not pathogenic. But your statement DENOTES that some are.
For that reason, raising canopies can be good not only around houses, but anywhere that foliage walls become excessive.
This has a direct relation with turfgrass management too.
For TREECO
Yes, you may have met "some" designers.
But I am not referring to "some" designers.
I'm referring to "those" people trained in arboriculture and landscape design.
For example, the superintendant of landscaping at Fox College in Oregon. With 20 years experience, he has a degree in ornamental horticulture, and is a Ceritified Arborist. That's a decent balance. He has a rounded education in perennials, shrubs, trees, turf.
My post clearly indicated that general concept.. For you to lead off on some tangent, MAY indicate your personal agenda.
Common sense indicates that a (not "some") designer trained in arboriculture could plan a better design than one not trained in arboriculture.
And an arborist can prune better, and time tree removals better if trained in design (ornamental horticulture and plant ID regarding lower story plant materials).
Dr. Shigo was not referring to just dead wood. Since he added some precautions, those precautions would be irrelevant if only dead wood was removed.
As for disease, yes, many are not pathogenic. But your statement DENOTES that some are.
For that reason, raising canopies can be good not only around houses, but anywhere that foliage walls become excessive.
This has a direct relation with turfgrass management too.
For TREECO
Yes, you may have met "some" designers.
But I am not referring to "some" designers.
I'm referring to "those" people trained in arboriculture and landscape design.
For example, the superintendant of landscaping at Fox College in Oregon. With 20 years experience, he has a degree in ornamental horticulture, and is a Ceritified Arborist. That's a decent balance. He has a rounded education in perennials, shrubs, trees, turf.
My post clearly indicated that general concept.. For you to lead off on some tangent, MAY indicate your personal agenda.
Common sense indicates that a (not "some") designer trained in arboriculture could plan a better design than one not trained in arboriculture.
And an arborist can prune better, and time tree removals better if trained in design (ornamental horticulture and plant ID regarding lower story plant materials).
M.D. Vaden
vadenphotography.com
QUOTE OF TREECO:
"I think most of whatever it is you are talking about when you say "turfgrass management" is usually bad for the trees.
Landscrapers and Landscape Artichokes usually have priorities and trees are seldom at the top of the list."
END OF QUOTE
No, that's not what I intended to say. And, in rereading my post, I don't think my vocabulary conveyed that.
It looks like that's what you just said. Didn't your phrase mention "bad for trees?"
In looking back, didn't I say "turfgrass management?"
My acquaintences in the tree and landscape fields here work fairly hard to maintain turf, plants and trees. So I'm not sure what direction your conversation is headed.
We must have some people here that don't care about some size of plant, but since I don't do commerce with them, or sub work to them, I can't name any right off hand.
The goal of responsible golf course superintendents in our region is to maintain trees in a way that promotes healthy turf, while also maintaining trees. And they do it the best they can while remaining subordinate to the Green's Committee that interviewed and hired them.
For that reason, many of them don't run their boom herbicide sprayers under trees, so the trees don't get damaged.
And if there are few here that don't care about trees, I don't call them "Stuperintendents." They are golf course "Superintendents", and I just leave it at that.
They don't insult me, and I don't insult them.
Most of them taught me ways to avoid damaging trees, so I give credit to their profession and most of their organization - the Golf Course Superintendents Association.
It would be detrimental for the entire hort industry if I started making up degrading titles for professionals like them.
It would make me look worse than my degradation aimed at them.
"I think most of whatever it is you are talking about when you say "turfgrass management" is usually bad for the trees.
Landscrapers and Landscape Artichokes usually have priorities and trees are seldom at the top of the list."
END OF QUOTE
No, that's not what I intended to say. And, in rereading my post, I don't think my vocabulary conveyed that.
It looks like that's what you just said. Didn't your phrase mention "bad for trees?"
In looking back, didn't I say "turfgrass management?"
My acquaintences in the tree and landscape fields here work fairly hard to maintain turf, plants and trees. So I'm not sure what direction your conversation is headed.
We must have some people here that don't care about some size of plant, but since I don't do commerce with them, or sub work to them, I can't name any right off hand.
The goal of responsible golf course superintendents in our region is to maintain trees in a way that promotes healthy turf, while also maintaining trees. And they do it the best they can while remaining subordinate to the Green's Committee that interviewed and hired them.
For that reason, many of them don't run their boom herbicide sprayers under trees, so the trees don't get damaged.
And if there are few here that don't care about trees, I don't call them "Stuperintendents." They are golf course "Superintendents", and I just leave it at that.
They don't insult me, and I don't insult them.
Most of them taught me ways to avoid damaging trees, so I give credit to their profession and most of their organization - the Golf Course Superintendents Association.
It would be detrimental for the entire hort industry if I started making up degrading titles for professionals like them.
It would make me look worse than my degradation aimed at them.
I have never seen a landscaper or landscrape architect that knew jack about trees. A few that do know something, they call me after all....
Usually at the end of a project when their over engineered hardscape is killing the trees they framed it around. $30K in retaining walls, stone work, and overpriced plants centered around a 100+ yr old post oak. "Well you see Mr. LA, the tree has no leaves because it is dead - post oaks have zero tolerance for fill, compation, or any changes in drainage - it should have been the first consideration in your design.........."
That is followed by being booted off the property since they need an opinion that will tell the homeowner it was a mystery beetle, fungi, or drought.
I have always thought that if you could marry landscape design with arboriculture, you could truly make magic. Design lanscapes for the long run instead of planting and designing "problems" to be headaches down the road......
And in a perfect world we will join hands and sing in harmony for world peace......
Usually at the end of a project when their over engineered hardscape is killing the trees they framed it around. $30K in retaining walls, stone work, and overpriced plants centered around a 100+ yr old post oak. "Well you see Mr. LA, the tree has no leaves because it is dead - post oaks have zero tolerance for fill, compation, or any changes in drainage - it should have been the first consideration in your design.........."
That is followed by being booted off the property since they need an opinion that will tell the homeowner it was a mystery beetle, fungi, or drought.
I have always thought that if you could marry landscape design with arboriculture, you could truly make magic.
Design lanscapes for the long run instead of planting and designing "problems" to be headaches down the road......And in a perfect world we will join hands and sing in harmony for world peace......
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel
LMAO Guy!
Why not bring Butch up to NC this winter to do some climbing for ya? If you thought I was hard to work with, maybe Butch might teach you a thing or two.
**Brian, that kind of lesson I don't even need. Let me remember you as the ultimate in attitude and a very nimble aerialist. Besides, now that you're no longer sucking butts, I'll bet your tar-and-nicotine-freed self is much easier for contractors and customers alike to work with. Hang in there!
As for subs, I would only bring in people who've bought a book since 1997 and don't tune out workshops. See other thread.
Re landscape designers, in NC they are the worst. One class only in the NCSU LD curriculum touches on native trees. I had em for 45 minutes and it barely made a dent. Courses are chock full of artsyfartsy nonsense and no attention to needs of existing trees.
OR may have some good LD's who know about trees, but I hope the arbos there don't seek to prune "right after the leaves come on." Not while forming, MD!
Originally posted by TREETX
Usually at the end of a project when their over engineered hardscape is killing the trees they framed it around. $30K in retaining walls, stone work, and overpriced plants centered around a 100+ yr old post oak. "Well you see Mr. LA, the tree has no leaves because it is dead - post oaks have zero tolerance for fill, compaction, or any changes in drainage - it should have been the first consideration in your design.........."
That is followed by being booted off the property since they need an opinion that will tell the homeowner it was a mystery beetle, fungi, or drought.
I have always thought that if you could marry landscape design with arboriculture, you could truly make magic.
i'm finding that very quotable, and will prolly pitch it towards a few builders/ landscapers!
Mike's list too, both an enlightenmeant/ education. The removal of large lower limbs can also rearange weight distribution, making more top heavy/volatile? But then to the arguement side; i think custmers want easily cared for (no ducking to mow) lawnscape also low branchings under 6' (low for a tree.....) propose a possible violation to security as far as night lighting, and viewing property with as few hiding places as possible.
Also aesthetically most owners seem to view trees as a framing and setting off of the grounds and buildings in a picture, rather than the tree as the focal point itself. Many harmonies to be met.
M.D. Vaden
vadenphotography.com
TREE TEX
Loved your comment about magic - landscape design being married with arboriculture.
A large volume of my exposure in this industry was the university campuses and botanical gardens here - where there is neither arborist, nor designer.
Those locations here, have what may be termed horticulturist that is both put together, if not agronomist (soils) too.
When I started in business, it was an oddity that the industry was fragmented to a great degree.
At first, I thought I was somewhat alone in business, having care for landscape design, and arboriculture.
As each year progressed, I soon met other contractors in horticulture that knew and cared for both facets. There was no way to tell from advertising, because in Oregon, most tree services can't advertise landscaping, so they don't progress into that field, or can't use a title indicating that work.
Landscapers that know arboriculture, don't advertise it, because they are licensed landscape contractors (that legally do tree work). In many cases, they do their own small pruning to industry standards, and just contract the big work to cut down on equipment, but none the less, adhere to arboriculture.
Its taken a decade, but I've finally see that there are horticulturists in the area that enjoy all phases of the industry.
The landscape technology college program in Portland was a real treat. At least 2 full classes taught everything needed to cover or exceed what would be most of the current ISA certification exam. That class was taught by a consulting arborist experienced in this local region.
And the other 5 ID classes taught and tested for about 500 trees and shrubs (1 class each quarter for 5 quarters). Then one class was dedicated to native plants. And a bonsai master taught a full course on bonsai, and saekai (? spelling).
Not quite sure of the course outline at the moment, but am somewhat dissappointed that it requires one class mandantory spanish now, instead of Spanish as an option.
Then there were soils, pesticides, horticulture and other classes.
It would be a slick deal if every landscaper, designer and arborist, in say 20 years, could all be expected to maintain a "core" equivelant to about an associates degree mimimum, of horticulture training that "married" landscape design and arboriculture.
Loved your comment about magic - landscape design being married with arboriculture.
A large volume of my exposure in this industry was the university campuses and botanical gardens here - where there is neither arborist, nor designer.
Those locations here, have what may be termed horticulturist that is both put together, if not agronomist (soils) too.
When I started in business, it was an oddity that the industry was fragmented to a great degree.
At first, I thought I was somewhat alone in business, having care for landscape design, and arboriculture.
As each year progressed, I soon met other contractors in horticulture that knew and cared for both facets. There was no way to tell from advertising, because in Oregon, most tree services can't advertise landscaping, so they don't progress into that field, or can't use a title indicating that work.
Landscapers that know arboriculture, don't advertise it, because they are licensed landscape contractors (that legally do tree work). In many cases, they do their own small pruning to industry standards, and just contract the big work to cut down on equipment, but none the less, adhere to arboriculture.
Its taken a decade, but I've finally see that there are horticulturists in the area that enjoy all phases of the industry.
The landscape technology college program in Portland was a real treat. At least 2 full classes taught everything needed to cover or exceed what would be most of the current ISA certification exam. That class was taught by a consulting arborist experienced in this local region.
And the other 5 ID classes taught and tested for about 500 trees and shrubs (1 class each quarter for 5 quarters). Then one class was dedicated to native plants. And a bonsai master taught a full course on bonsai, and saekai (? spelling).
Not quite sure of the course outline at the moment, but am somewhat dissappointed that it requires one class mandantory spanish now, instead of Spanish as an option.
Then there were soils, pesticides, horticulture and other classes.
It would be a slick deal if every landscaper, designer and arborist, in say 20 years, could all be expected to maintain a "core" equivelant to about an associates degree mimimum, of horticulture training that "married" landscape design and arboriculture.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
Around here LA and Hort do not go hand in hand. Thought here are a few I have some respect for. One runs a nursery/garden center in Mequon called LeafLand. His name is Jim Walczak. NicK C's dad does a prety good job too.
Most of the big design/build companies are there to sell a product, not something to last decades. I've seen some well done/maintained jobs from 30-50 years ago. Those are impressive.
Seems that most LA's these days want material that will look good in theire artistic concept now, compatability is not really a concideration.
Too many river birch in raised mounds in driveway circles.
Most of the big design/build companies are there to sell a product, not something to last decades. I've seen some well done/maintained jobs from 30-50 years ago. Those are impressive.
Seems that most LA's these days want material that will look good in theire artistic concept now, compatability is not really a concideration.
Too many river birch in raised mounds in driveway circles.
