Question from newby "hobby arborist"

[Fireaxman]

Can I borrow that soap box for a minute?

...oh well. another good question is: should there be such a thing as a hobby arborist? ...-Ralph

Yes. There should be "hobby arborists". For the same reason, and maybe a better reason, that there are hobby skydivers, scuba divers, mountain climbers, etc. There are risks in almost anything worthwhile, tree work is often more worthwhile than many of the other "Hobbies", and in fact the risk adds to the enjoyment for any of us that like the adventure. We "Hobby Arborists" just need to do our homework (as it seems to me apex is doing his homework) to be sure we mitigate the risks appropriately. I can assure you from personal experience that Lifespan on "Hobby Arborists" can easily exceed 58 years if they learn to recognize and adhere to good advice and basic safety principles, and if they can recognize their own limitations. Of course, a certain amount of "Grace of God" is a great help.

......and the best question yet, and one I think folks (and me) should answer first: should we be giving advice to non arbs for in tree work? [/soapbox]
-Ralph

Again, from me, a resounding "Yes". Whether it be parsimony, courage, sense of adventure, pure foolishness, or any combination of the above the "Hobby Arborist" I am personaly most familiar with would be very likely to attempt the project anyway, with or without "Professional" advice. Whatever advice you offer in good faith will stimulate the thought process of the serious student, whether "Hobbyest" or novice technician, to pursue his vocation or avocation more carefully. You "Professionals" on this web site do an excellent job of pointing out the hazards of your profession. "Hobbyest" or just plain "Novice" would be much more at risk without your counsel.

Also, as I have pointed out before, how many "Professionals" are asking for advice in the "Arborist 101" thread anyway? A "Hobbyest" can be at least as good a student as any other begining climber, and "Engineers" have usually proven themselves to be particularly good students through the studies required to obtain their degrees.

......I know Id feel real bad if his wife logged in 2 weeks from now to tell us of an accident doing something he got talked into doing by members of this site.
[/soapbox]
-Ralph

You have no reason to feel bad if in good faith you gave the best advice you could with the limited information available to you. No "Teacher" should feel in the least apologetic for advice sincerely meant to enlighten. It becomes the students responsibility to assess the qualifications of his chosen mentor and take - or refuse- the advice that is appropriate for his or her experience level. You are not talking anyone into doing anything. You are only trying to help him either do it safely, or recognize it is beyond his experience level.

On the other hand, if you are deliberately offering bad advice either in sarcasm or through some misguided sense of humour, or if you are with-holding good advice out of jealousy or to "Protect your Secrets" may you be thrown into the outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. You are not being a good steward of the "Talents" the Lord has given you. Ralph, I dont think you would do that. Thanks for the good advice you have occasionaly given to this confessed "Hobby Arborist".

 

[tree md]

Ralph, I have read many of your replies with much dismay. I hope the hell you make it in this world but I have to say, what comes around goes around.. I have heard you say things like "why should I give someone advice when they are competition" and basically "I'd be better off with the competition being dead"... That irked me. I'll give whatever advice I want to around here if it will help someone make a buck besides me or not and live to tell about it. I don't know a lot about you but have considered you a tree brother... I hope you make it through whatever troubles you are going through now... but don't tell me what advise to give to keep someone else alive...

Thank you and have a nice day...

 

[beowulf343]

I see a couple problems with 101. First, too many newbs don't like when a pro tells them something they don't want to hear. And second, i personally feel tree climbing, etc. should be taught person to person, face to face. (Can't think of the word i want to use. ) A newb should be taught by someone first hand. Yes, alot can be learned from this site. But to a newb who doesn't know the terms, he can have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say. For example, we are talking about bore cuts, snap cuts, notches, face cuts, tag lines, etc. Does a newb know any of these terms? Probably not. I feel someone should show a newb the basics and then they can start learning for themselves from there. I love teaching guys new things, but i also like to be there so i know that they know what i am talking about.

Now i'll dismount from my soapbox:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[CA arborista]

I don't understand you're question "cut it through from the top". Do you mean to chunk it down? As a climber I would expect that chunking it would be the most comfortable and familiar method. You can use the limbs from the top to make a bed to protect any landscaping or turf underneath. If you opt to top it and then fell the trunk, you can straight fell it with the standard face and back-cut (we use Humbolt). How big is the "hole" in between the trees you want to protect? You can secure the fall with a line high in the tree (choker or high-rated rope) and a come-a-long or straight pull with equipment.

 

[apexpredator]

Done deal...

Thanks for the info. I topped both of my bro in laws trees last Sunday. Went as planned, safely. Most of the latter part of this discussion is based on my earlier, poorly worded questions. Since I'm not an "arb", I don't speak "arb".

I was surprised by the number (and height) of soap boxes my posting garnered...so I looked around for other sources of assistance. I needed a translator to just follow the "arb" language. A few handy online sites I found:

http://www.forestapps.com/tips/oldbrow.html
Great site with well written and illustrated articles. Helped greatly in understanding face cut, back cut, etc.

http://www.mytreelessons.com/
Another great site with animated flash, knot and rigging info.

http://www.animatedknots.com/
Excellent source for those of us whose merit badges are two decades old.

Along with the MANY online retailers like WesSpur, I was able to translate the "arb" lannguage into "alpine" and thus was able to equivalate climbing and rigging terms.

Nevertheless, I was able to safely top three trees, his two, my one, safely, within the sage guidance offfered in threads other than this one.

Since this is Arborist 101, I would recommend a prerequisite class to future posters, such as Arb to English 101 or rename the class to Arborist 301 or even 501. (100 level classes are generally offered without prerequisites, and most posting from "newby's" elicit a response like "take a class". 500 level classes are at the graduate level, which is the level many of you seem to want this discussion to start.)

Don't worry, I'm not going to start my own business, its too freaking hard. I sweated my butt off getting these two trees on the ground. I think I'll keep my amateur card...does anyone know when the qualification rounds for the Olympics will be held? I hereby renounce my "hobby arborist" reference. Hobby implies an activity that can be done in a chair, listening the radio. Consider me a "sportsman class arborist"...

 

[RedlineIt]

apexpredator,

Sounds like you are confident enough of your spurs and your gear list is at the very least an indicator to me that you know how to pass by a fork or limb safely.

An undercut, but a small one, is needed on a limb with a lot of end weight where barberchairing or peeling is a concern. Binding the limb tightly below your cut with rope is advised. Oaks are not noted "peelers" but you can always "cut the ears out of your holding wood", ie: cut the bark that would represent the two most outer edges of your hingewood. Then don't be circumspect on your backcut, RedlineIt (!) and power through! Sharp chain vital. Be ready for your perch in the tree to spring up and away from the lost wieght!

Always climb with a top notch hand saw (see site sponsors websites). Have a backup chainsaw on the ground ready to be tied on and sent up. It's rare, but I've had chains break at the oddest moments.

You say this tree is dead or dying. If the crown is dying then the roots are dying, and root death may even precede the lack of leaves. Dead roots are a serious concern for the climber. Mushrooms at the base or on the root flare are often a hint but without doing a root excavation, at the very least put a rope high in the tree from the ground and do a pull test, beyond fall range, rig up a 3 to 1 mechanical advandage if necessary to get some real movement in the crown.

While pulling violently back and forth on the rope, (allow time for crown deadwood to sift out) an observer at the base of the tree should determine that all movement is the result of trunk flex. If the observer notes ground heaving (bad, bad, bad) or basal rocking (worse, stop ****** pulling) then this becomes a job you simply have to farm out to someone with more equipment and expertise. Unsafe to climb.

The other concern in a dead tree is the structural intergrity of the trunk you will climb. If you encounter any sort of fungi on the trunk it is a dead giveaway of internal decay and I submit that determining the safety of the tree is beyond the reckoning of a hobbyist, even if you can determine the extent of the decay. Again, unsafe to climb.


And now my "101 Soapbox": The toughest thing is that I don't know what you don't know. You don't know what you don't know. I'm all for DIY, but at least twice a year I go to finish a job where a second contractor is waiting to replace roofing or gutters or fencing, or worse, the client greets me on crutches or with an arm in a sling.

My expectation of the 101 forum was that new talent to the industry would ask about boots, knots, ascenders, Knute vs Blakes and so on, and admirably that does happen. Kudos to the 101 forum.

My humble request is that posts and threads like this go in the Homeowner helper form. Engineer, or high steel worker, 5.0 rock face climber, it does not matter, it's still a Homeowner, DIYer who doesn't know what he doesn't know.



RedlineIt

 

[geofore]

newbie advice

Since this is Arborist 101, I would recommend a prerequisite class to future posters, such as Arb to English 101 or rename the class to Arborist 301 or even 501. (100 level classes are generally offered without prerequisites, and most posting from "newby's" elicit a response like "take a class". 500 level classes are at the graduate level, which is the level many of you seem to want this discussion to start.)

Don't worry, I'm not going to start my own business, its too freaking hard. I sweated my butt off getting these two trees on the ground. I think I'll keep my amateur card...does anyone know when the qualification rounds for the Olympics will be held? I hereby renounce my "hobby arborist" reference. Hobby implies an activity that can be done in a chair, listening the radio. Consider me a "sportsman class arborist"...[/QUOTE]

You can sit in a chair and read the catalogs or splice rope but you have to get out of the chair to use the tools. Up near the top of the page between New Posts and Quick Links is Search, click on it and type the word you're looking for and a list of threads should pop up with the word in Arb speak you're looking for in them. Some threads have pictures The Search functions as a find arb speak here for the newbies though few know it's there and even fewer use it. Click on Search and type in the word. It's used about as much as Spell Check so when you're looking for something close is good on the spelling.
Welcome to the site.

 

[CA arborista]

All and any newbies -

Yes, you will read some testosterone inflated writing on this site but the MVPs that contribute (you will come to know them) are an excellent resource. It is even more rewarding when you receive words of wisdom from someone overseas (out of the USA) and you realize the scope of this interchange of information.

Please foregive our Arbspeak. Actually, we all come from varied backgrounds and merg around the world of arboriculture. We have to learn Arbspeak, too.

Welcome to the party.

 

[Bigus Termitius]

All and any newbies -

Yes, you will read some testosterone inflated writing on this site but the MVPs that contribute (you will come to know them) are an excellent resource. It is even more rewarding when you receive words of wisdom from someone overseas (out of the USA) and you realize the scope of this interchange of information.

Please foregive our Arbspeak. Actually, we all come from varied backgrounds and merg around the world of arboriculture. We have to learn Arbspeak, too.

Welcome to the party.

We can handle it. I've lurked for a spell and it's not greek, it just takes time.

This site ROCKS!

 

[Adkpk]

Nevertheless, I was able to safely top three trees, his two, my one, safely, within the sage guidance offfered in threads other than this one.

IMO, apex (wise a@@) this is exactly what the posting on this thread was directing you to do. Using fancy language to make you look further into what you were asking to do. Your a smart one and got it done but God forbid someone after you might read this a say, "if he did so can I", but maybe he can't. This site is read by many and the posting is about stuff that can be dangerous. That said, glad to here it's down. Welcome to the site.

 

[Fireaxman]

An undercut, but a small one, is needed on a limb with a lot of end weight where barberchairing or peeling is a concern. Binding the limb tightly below your cut with rope is advised. Oaks are not noted "peelers" but you can always "cut the ears out of your holding wood", ie: cut the bark that would represent the two most outer edges of your hingewood. Then don't be circumspect on your backcut, RedlineIt (!) and power through! Sharp chain vital. Be ready for your perch in the tree to spring up and away from the lost wieght!

Good advice - except that I think you need more than a "small" undercut, and the oaks I am working on are having a definite tendency to peel. I learned my lesson from this one. I had a small undercut, and it was not deep enough. The limb did have a lot of end weight. I should have taken some of the end weight off before I made the cut - and, I should have made a deeper undercut and used a stronger saw for the top cut. Anyway, here is what it looks like 4 years after the mistakes. Fortunately, no permanent damage to the climber (just a "near miss" if the limb would have grabbed my flip line), but still a nasty scar on the tree, and of course the top is not as wind firm as it would have been without my feaux pas.

The toughest thing is that I don't know what you don't know. You don't know what you don't know.

Amen. Good statement of the problem.

My humble request is that posts and threads like this go in the Homeowner helper form. Engineer, or high steel worker, 5.0 rock face climber, it does not matter, it's still a Homeowner, DIYer who doesn't know what he doesn't know.
RedlineIt

I disagree. I think "Arborist 101" is a great place for threads like this. There is a big difference between a Homeowner Do It Yourselfer who needs help with one or two trees and a man who is exploring a new "Sport" or avocation for long term benefits, and is willing to do the homework to learn to do it right. I did not start this forum, dont know what the originator had in mind, but I would very much like "Arborist 101" to be a Safe place to ask questions and ask for help, for anyone serious about learning to do it long term and do it right, without risking a bunch of flak from sanctimonious ego builders. With very few exceptions, that is precisely what it has been for me.

 

[moray]

Excellent post, Fireaxman.

I would just add that the "sanctimonious ego builders," as you so aptly put it, are just a nuisance (I have run headlong into a couple, myself). They can't actually prevent the dissemination of good information and ideas. Perhaps they even provide a hidden service by discouraging just those people who should be discouraged, people without the confidence and energy to learn to do it right.

 

[CJ-7]

I, too, am an engineer (yea, yea) a rec climber and and a "hobby tree trimmer". Seems as though there are a lot of us around for the reasons stated earlier. I'm getting to old (60) to try something like Apex was asking about and suceeded at. But after reading thousands of posts on this site over the last 5 years, and being in many trees I have a good feel for a lot of the typical hazards. As a result I had a tree service come in and remove a cherry that had multiple thin trunks starting 6 feet up with some obvoious decay in the base trunk. I would have loved to take it down with my little 018 as it has been our kids climbing tree for over 30 years but I wasn't comfortable climbing it in it's current state. The tree service did spike it for the removal as truck or crane access was not possible.

Just wanted to let you know that all of your cautions are not wasted on deaf ears.

 

[RedlineIt]

Fireaxman,

Thanks for both the bouquets and the brickbats. Both are useful!

I see where I posted my advice to apexpredator just after he had posted that he was all done, safe and sound. Oh well, the post will still be there for others, and I hope it was useful.

I recommended the small under cut on a heavily end weighted limb so that the newish climber does not get the saw pinched. I did fail to specifically mention to do the cut well out on the limb, ie: leave a generous stub. Another way to avoid that is to make the backcut "inboard" of the undercut, but you really have to be aware of your saw control for that technique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedlineIt
My humble request is that posts and threads like this go in the Homeowner helper form. Engineer, or high steel worker, 5.0 rock face climber, it does not matter, it's still a Homeowner, DIYer who doesn't know what he doesn't know.
RedlineIt

I disagree. I think "Arborist 101" is a great place for threads like this. There is a big difference between a Homeowner Do It Yourselfer who needs help with one or two trees and a man who is exploring a new "Sport" or avocation for long term benefits, and is willing to do the homework to learn to do it right. I did not start this forum, dont know what the originator had in mind, but I would very much like "Arborist 101" to be a Safe place to ask questions and ask for help, for anyone serious about learning to do it long term and do it right, without risking a bunch of flak from sanctimonious ego builders. With very few exceptions, that is precisely what it has been for me.

I've thought about it and I've reconsidered and believe you are right. The Homeowner Helper is for questions like "Why are the leaves on my tree yellow?". Arbor 101 is the place for those who will challenge themselves in a tree, do some research, and end up coming HERE, see what is on offer then log on and asking intelligent questions looking for some answers.

Still, it's a risky thing to advise someone to do a risky thing from a thousand miles away when you can't be sure they know which hole in the saw the gas goes in...




Finally, Kudos to Apexpredator for just gittin' er done.



RedlineIt

 

[Bigus Termitius]

We could always rename it Arborist 098 if it would help some fell better.

 

[Fireaxman]

Fireaxman,

Another way to avoid that is to make the backcut "inboard" of the undercut, but you really have to be aware of your saw control for that technique.

True! Been there, done that right - and wrong. Nice 026 hit the ground from 30 feet up when I made the top cut too far out and the limb split out and took the saw with it to the ground. Fortunately I was not lanyarded in to the saw. Since then I have done it right on occasion, as you suggested, but it may not be a 101 technique. So, ...

Still, it's a risky thing to advise someone to do a risky thing from a thousand miles away when you can't be sure they know which hole in the saw the gas goes in....

True. And many times an advanced climber accumulates a lot of good "Habits" that become so ingrained that he or she takes them for granted, things that just seem too obvious to warrent special mention. Accordingly, I think it is most excellent that you preface your advice with the kind of cautions you have used. But I am a big believer that I need to take personal responsibility for the things I am willing to try. I just want to encourage you to continue to share with us. I have had a lot fewer "Near Misses" since I started following your advice than before I found this web site, and I have taken to heart the warnnings that I am "Not Ready Yet" to try some of the more risky operations. A close study of the "... Injuries and Fatalities" forum is a great lesson in humility. There but for the grace of God go I.

Most of you guys are doing a great job sharing your skills, and I wish I had a better way of showing my appreciation than just adding to your "Reputation". I've even offered Omaha Steaks to a couple of you with no takers; men who seem intent on just helping for the pleasure of helping. You got to love what you do to spend all day in a tree, and then spend half the night on a computer coaching us "Wannabies". Thanks!!!

 

[Fireaxman]

... Perhaps they even provide a hidden service by discouraging just those people who should be discouraged, people without the confidence and energy to learn to do it right.

Well, son of a gun. You just made me feel a whole lot better about them. And I guess they also do a pretty good job of filling in some of the blanks on "You dont know what you dont know", which was absolutely true for me as a "Newbie". I've really done some dumb stuff. Nobodies fault but mine.

But I hope they dont occasionally run off an "Apexpredator" kind of guy. It impressed me that he went to the trouble to research those other web sites, and it looks like he found what he needed, and had the determination, to complete the job safely.

 

[apexpredator]

Actually I've been surprised by the number of replies and breadth of discussion. As a non-professional, I don't feel I can weigh in on what I should know versus what I do know, but I've been smart enough to balance risk versus reward for almost 40 years, and I consider tree work no riskier than doing electric work, roofing or motorcycle riding. You just have to be able to appreciate the risks. Falling 50' from a tree, mishandling a chain saw, of felling a tree on top of myself are all bad, and potentially fatal errors.

"A man's got to know his limitations."

The discussion has been enlightening however.