nocdpc
ArboristSite Member
I am telling you all use grass clippings from mowing. If you have a catcher it is great. just layer them thick on the bed. it also cuts down on watering too.
Raised Beds
- Thread starter Wood Scrounge
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I am telling you all use grass clippings from mowing. If you have a catcher it is great. just layer them thick on the bed. it also cuts down on watering too.
*Feeling a little attacked*
SL, you live in the same universe as the rest of us, right? I have to sign a similar agreement when I want some damn Sudafed. The licking thing is news to me but I know that they actually coated the things with tar leftover after they make asphalt. Can't be good for any one, eh? Point is, we have studies showing that leached chemicals from wood, dissolved in water, deposited in dirt and absorbed by your eggplant is not going to kill anyone. Neither will the Cod I'm eating tonight. Neither will the Diet Coke I enjoy from time to time.
*Believe this.* Dilution is the solution to pollution.
Your body will take care of any poison you put into it, in moderation. So will the Earth for that matter.
SL, you live in the same universe as the rest of us, right? I have to sign a similar agreement when I want some damn Sudafed. The licking thing is news to me but I know that they actually coated the things with tar leftover after they make asphalt. Can't be good for any one, eh? Point is, we have studies showing that leached chemicals from wood, dissolved in water, deposited in dirt and absorbed by your eggplant is not going to kill anyone. Neither will the Cod I'm eating tonight. Neither will the Diet Coke I enjoy from time to time.
*Believe this.* Dilution is the solution to pollution.
Your body will take care of any poison you put into it, in moderation. So will the Earth for that matter.
SLlandscape
ArboristSite Operative
I have never heard of these "studies" But I do know that the older poles, and a few of the new ones were coated with tar as you said, but that is on the outside. The main chemicals for preservation are through out the entire pole (PT). Same with PT lumber from the yard, it's throughout the board. Personnally, I dont' like to use PT lumber for vegie beds because it has a weird smell after it's cut, the chems, and for my personal preference. The same goes for the utility poles. When you have a big pile of ut. poles lying around you can pick up the smell in the air, especially in summer whether they're cut or not.
Feeling attacked? No. I'm only surprised as to how you didn't show much concern for PT on vegie beds. But again that's my opinion.
And for the record I HATE eggplant, If you can eat that nasty stuff and like it, I tip my hat to you.
Lol, actually Eggplant was the first thing that came to mind since the wife insists on having it from time to time. 
The article I posted sited/summarized several experiments over the past decade. I refuse to be scared by this particular urban legend of sorts. But then I sleep 40 ft away from a small fission reactor at power too...
The article I posted sited/summarized several experiments over the past decade. I refuse to be scared by this particular urban legend of sorts. But then I sleep 40 ft away from a small fission reactor at power too...
SLlandscape: You're comparing apples and hedgeapples. RR ties and telephone poles are pressure treated with a tar-like substance called creosote. It isn't remotely related to CCA timber, which doesn't contain creosote.
Creosote treated wood is often considered a hazardous material; some of the local landfills refuse to accept it. Yes, this is the black gooey stuff that leaks out of the wood. Also, so far as I am aware, it has not been shown to leach anywhere, mostly because it is pretty water-insoluble. I am not going to comment on whether it's safe in a garden, 'cause I don't know. Creosote is pretty bad stuff, but it's also used in over the counter pharmacuetical products. I know that RR ties will instantly dull a chainsaw, and they are vary hard to work with.
I have some responses to your post from above, inserted in red:
By the way, here is a good reference on creosote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creosote
From this article, a pertinant quote: "The United States Environmental Protection Agency has stated that coal tar creosote is a probable human carcinogen based on both human and animal studies.[3] As such, the Federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has set a permissible exposure limit of ..."
Also: "A 2005 mortality study of creosote workers found no evidence supporting an increased risk of cancer death as a result of exposure to creosote. Based on the findings of the largest mortality study to date of workers employed in creosote wood treating plants, there is no evidence that employment at creosote wood-treating plants or exposure to creosote-based preservatives was associated with any significant mortality increase from either site-specific cancers or non-malignant diseases. The study consisted of 2,179 employees ... One third of the study subjects was employed for over 15 years."
SOooo: the people that evaluate toxicity say it's probably carcinogenic, but the people that have been working with the stuff for the last 50 years don't show any signs of increased mortality or cancers. And they are putting the stuff in our shampoo: I have several bottles at my house, my wife likes the stuff.
I don't worry about it, I just hate working with the RR ties.
Creosote treated wood is often considered a hazardous material; some of the local landfills refuse to accept it. Yes, this is the black gooey stuff that leaks out of the wood. Also, so far as I am aware, it has not been shown to leach anywhere, mostly because it is pretty water-insoluble. I am not going to comment on whether it's safe in a garden, 'cause I don't know. Creosote is pretty bad stuff, but it's also used in over the counter pharmacuetical products. I know that RR ties will instantly dull a chainsaw, and they are vary hard to work with.
I have some responses to your post from above, inserted in red:
By the way, here is a good reference on creosote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creosote
From this article, a pertinant quote: "The United States Environmental Protection Agency has stated that coal tar creosote is a probable human carcinogen based on both human and animal studies.[3] As such, the Federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has set a permissible exposure limit of ..."
Also: "A 2005 mortality study of creosote workers found no evidence supporting an increased risk of cancer death as a result of exposure to creosote. Based on the findings of the largest mortality study to date of workers employed in creosote wood treating plants, there is no evidence that employment at creosote wood-treating plants or exposure to creosote-based preservatives was associated with any significant mortality increase from either site-specific cancers or non-malignant diseases. The study consisted of 2,179 employees ... One third of the study subjects was employed for over 15 years."
SOooo: the people that evaluate toxicity say it's probably carcinogenic, but the people that have been working with the stuff for the last 50 years don't show any signs of increased mortality or cancers. And they are putting the stuff in our shampoo: I have several bottles at my house, my wife likes the stuff.
I don't worry about it, I just hate working with the RR ties.
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SLlandscape
ArboristSite Operative
The wavier I sign from the eletrical co. has a sentence on it that says animals are prone to lick the surface because it tastes good. Whether or not they do, I don't no.
Read closer, I didn't say it was sweet, I said they like the taste of it, just like dogs and etc. drink antifreeze, because they think it tastes good.
I have been told that some poles were treated with arsenic but the majority were treated with creasote, then the goop stuff was put on the surface.
I don't know about other people but on the many occasions that I worked with PT lumber from a lumber yard I did notice that my arms and hands felt some what iritated, but not as bad as rr ties or ut poles.
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SLlandscape
ArboristSite Operative
Lol, actually Eggplant was the first thing that came to mind since the wife insists on having it from time to time.
You're still braver than me for eating egg plant. Yes I did try it.... once and that was the last time to.
Swamp Yankee
Addicted to ArboristSite
Wishie22
ArboristSite Operative
Use PT for now, easy to change if I don't like the way it is set. Currently running the beds 5' x 20'.
Once I get the beds the way I like then maybe replace with a nice stone (if affordable at the time). Ran into some old bricks but still undecided on what to use them for.
(compost) Using fresh dirt, chicken crap, shells, & leaves.
Tried wood-chips for bedding for one one bed (did pretty well), this year. Had a spaghetti squash take over half a bed and 10 feet of lawn.:jawdrop: Had about 30 footballs off that one
.
Will grab a new grass clipping (free chicken food) catcher this year, great for bedding (helps keep dirt from drying out fast and best of all keeps the weeds down, mulches well after too).
Eggplant is good when prepared right, vegetable steak. Nice breaded Egg Parmesan smothered in mozz, emm. Ahh like anything else, Calamari, cherry stones (raw with tabasco or thrown on the barbie), frog legs, asparagus on the barbie (olive oil & sea salt or adobo (man does that make your urine dark & smell)), when prepared right, umummumm good.
Handed out one Zucchini this year and the guy said thanks and bit right in. Stated that's how he prefers it, later asked if I had any more.:jawdrop: just made me realize everyone is different, and good to know u can eat it raw.
Once I get the beds the way I like then maybe replace with a nice stone (if affordable at the time). Ran into some old bricks but still undecided on what to use them for.
(compost) Using fresh dirt, chicken crap, shells, & leaves.
Tried wood-chips for bedding for one one bed (did pretty well), this year. Had a spaghetti squash take over half a bed and 10 feet of lawn.:jawdrop: Had about 30 footballs off that one
.Will grab a new grass clipping (free chicken food) catcher this year, great for bedding (helps keep dirt from drying out fast and best of all keeps the weeds down, mulches well after too).
Eggplant is good when prepared right, vegetable steak. Nice breaded Egg Parmesan smothered in mozz, emm. Ahh like anything else, Calamari, cherry stones (raw with tabasco or thrown on the barbie), frog legs, asparagus on the barbie (olive oil & sea salt or adobo (man does that make your urine dark & smell)), when prepared right, umummumm good.
Handed out one Zucchini this year and the guy said thanks and bit right in. Stated that's how he prefers it, later asked if I had any more.:jawdrop: just made me realize everyone is different, and good to know u can eat it raw.
mtfallsmikey
Addicted to ArboristSite
Maybe this is OT in this thread, but I am going to build a new raised bed for onions....need some advice....going to use a mix of sand/manure,will this work?
SLlandscape
ArboristSite Operative
I font' see why not. But be careful of how much manure you use, the nitrogen level will be pretty high. The sand will make it drain fast to so kee[ a close I eye on it during the summer.
Wood Scrounge
ArboristSite Guru
make sure that manure has been sitting around for awhile, fresh stuff can really do a number on your plants.
Wood Scrounge
ArboristSite Guru
Hers what I ended up with, 4 4'X4' PT lined with 4mm plastic. I will do another 8 out of some block I got cheap.
Well since this is an arboristsite, how about the idea of using small trees about 4" to 6" diameter and make raised beds from them?
Does not raise question of PT or creosote and will decompose naturally.
Does not raise question of PT or creosote and will decompose naturally.
Wood Scrounge
ArboristSite Guru
I've tried in the past with some maple but it did not last more then a couple of years. If I can get my hands on some cedar or black locust I will try it again. It is a nice look too
SLlandscape
ArboristSite Operative
Hers what I ended up with, 4 4'X4' PT lined with 4mm plastic. I will do another 8 out of some block I got cheap.
Is that peat moss?
A wood treatment facility was in operation near here for many years. In the early 1960s, an explosion and fire caused the release of chemicals including pentachorophenol, which migrated into the groundwater and contaminated domestic wells miles away.
The contamination is credited with causing many illnesses and deaths due to cancers. The facility is on the Superfund list. Our well, about 12 miles away, was tested in the 1980s as part of a "control group". I still wonder about that.
I avoid using PT lumber whenever possible. In the case of a few raised beds, regular boards are cheap enough to replace when they rot.
The feel and smell of PT gives me the creeps, but perhaps I have been sensitized.
http://www.envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/public/profile_report.asp?global_id=04240001
The contamination is credited with causing many illnesses and deaths due to cancers. The facility is on the Superfund list. Our well, about 12 miles away, was tested in the 1980s as part of a "control group". I still wonder about that.
I avoid using PT lumber whenever possible. In the case of a few raised beds, regular boards are cheap enough to replace when they rot.
The feel and smell of PT gives me the creeps, but perhaps I have been sensitized.
http://www.envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/public/profile_report.asp?global_id=04240001
Wishie22
ArboristSite Operative
Sorry to hear of your situation.
We bring in a water sample from our house faucet and have it tested every year with the town hall (If for any reason I feel the test was inconclusive I will bring a sample to one of the Universities and have a second test done). We have the lovely honors of dealing with radon around here, lot of ledge rock and a well water can be an escape route for the gas.
As for the PT, the chemicals used have changed several times in the past few years alone. Three years ago hang aluminum to cover up the treated wood, some of the chemicals used would eat (disintegrated) the aluminum fasteners & aluminum covering. Try explaining that to a customer, you built a deck, gazebo, lean-too, etc. for. Not the best stuff to use, but there is always worse, previous home owner was using RR ties & telephone poles for garden boarder.
One thing public knowledge is getting better. You know that they use chemicals in cigarette's to keep u addicted (same chemicals as rat poison made me wake up and quite).
Why do you think we don't use BTBs in gas anymore. Leached out of the seal of gas tanks and never truly burned, littered roadway & parking areas with the substance. Nice way spread around a chemical the public was never truly informed as to what the short term or long term effect will be on us or our environment. under certain light filters the roads still glow to this day.
Was in a conversation with an engineer who was hired by a major coffee chain. His task was to find what metallic additives would keep the flavor consistent, distinguished, and keep the consumer addicted for more. Keep the consumer chemically addicted for continued future consumption.
I can get free bricks, how do I know that they are not from a building that once contained asbestos's. Unless I conducted the demo, I truly will not know where the bricks are from or what they were used for.
Bottom line is educate yourself and know the products you use.
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