Realistic expectations of a chainsaw?

[zogger]

Titanium would help on the exhaust, bars, handlebars, mounting bolts, bar studs(mebbe) - basically replace steel with it to save weight. Titanium can only be hardened to somewhere in the 48Rc range. A chainsaw chain drive link is most likely 3000 series or 4000 series chrome moly, so it would eventually wear the titanium down unless it is nitride coated/anodized. Precipitation hardened Ti is something like 48Rc at best. So that's about as hard as the chain. You want it to be harder to last longer. Ti Nitride is something like 85Rc, but it is a very thin coat(anodized surface hardening). How long does it take before you see a GB Ti bar turn shiny? They supposedly hold up well.

You probably could realistically replace all your bolts, and maybe even the lugs, with Ti bolts for about $200 or so. That may save ya a few ounces.



You could grab some Ti Bike Handlebars and put them to use for the saw. Here's one that is 22" long and 162 grams - so maybe 40 grams less than a 6061 Al bar:



You COULD go with carbon fiber on a handle bar. They do not cost more than Titanium. And often cost less. And weigh less. But outside of a homeowners, won't last.

Ti would be lighter than stainless for the exhaust and last longer. And a really cool side effect is it changes colors once you start to use it:



But Husky already use super thin metal there as it is(I wonder why...). Your chainsaw bar will also turn that color around the leading edges when your oiler stops working.

You could replace the rod with titanium, but Ti is a very poor heat conductor. I dunno if the con rod pulls a lot of heat from the piston to the chassis. Or if it needs to. The poor conductivity of Ti may not require a heat shield/deflector behind the muffler, so would save that tiny bit of weight on some models.

You could maybe use aluminum beryllium(AlBe) pistons or cylinders. But those are silly expensive. They use it in Satellites and refurb-ed some Space Shuttle stuff with it, too. That's also F1 stuff. Actually, it was banned by F1... 'Be' by itself is stunningly expensive to fabricate. Or at least it used to be back when I was looking at it. In particle form, it is hazardous to your health. Here is an AlBe quote from an F1 site:

"A typical commercially available aluminium-beryllium alloy has a specific stiffness 250% greater than a good piston alloy, and 44% greater thermal conductivity."

So there ya go. Might as well make the handlebar from that, too. Oh, and your chainsaw bar.

It's 3:30AM! I am gonna go have a smoke and some bourbon.

A friend of mine I used to work with was studying and working on fine ceramics for an advanced degree. He eventually got hired by a big company and moved away. One of the discussions we had, when we were talking about that, mostly just me listening, he mentioned it was possible to build an engine (using the fine ceramics) with tolerances so great that you could run with no piston rings at all, and that it would require little if any actual cooling, meaning you could run pretty lean and still not worry about overheating issues like you get with the metal alloys.

Just what he said, anecdotal, etc.

 

[MacLaren]

The 562 needs to be placed on a scale. I seriously doubt its just a pound lighter than a 70cc saw. More like 2 pounds. IMO, and ive ran both the 555 is a stronger saw than the 361. I would imagine the 562 would be even stronger. The 555 was also the smoothest saw Ive ever ran. Mdavlee likes big saws, but he was so impressed with the 555 (and for good reason) he bought my 555. IMO, ya just have to run a 555 to understand what power it really has for what size she is. Truly remarkable IMO.
I also have an 028AV Super and it wasnt even near the saw the 555 is. But.....I didnt expect it to be. ASnd its not to say in the least that the 028AV Super isnt a fine saw, as it is. I love that little saw. But, IMO the 555 is exceptional. I really love the autotune.
But then again another fellow had mentioned a Husqvarna 450. I agree, very light and will cut like the devil! Same for the stihls in that class I would imagine. I guess its mostly personal preference. One saw I would really like to run would be the Stihl 241?

 

[mowoodchopper]

how many times do they need to put the damn thing on a scale :rolleyes2:

 

[MacLaren]

how many times do they need to put the damn thing on a scale :rolleyes2:

I dont think theyve weighed the 562 yet. Atleast not that Ive heard. Would be interesting to see what it actually weighs.

 

[sawinredneck]

Pics

as promised for comparasion, 372xp 20" b&c fuel and oil

20" b&c,fuel and bar oil

 

[MacLaren]

My bad.......so lemme guess a 372xp and a 562xp both 20"b/c full of fuids? Looks like a pound and a half diff? I really idnt know they were already compared.

 

[sawinredneck]

Yup, same bar and chain, both full of fluids then put on the scale. There were a lot of eyeopening weighs and measures found in the 562xp thread!

 

[StihlyinEly]

The classification should be in how much work can be performed for the weight of the saw. I don't know, but for the little run time I had on the slightly modified 261 I ran, it was getting into or was into the 361 range (its be a long time since I ran a stock 361, so my gauge is off on that I'm sure), but the 261 for its heavier weight will completely out perform a 260, in power and much less fuel consumption, this is very important, as there are few that need to one hand the 261 all day. I personally find that for all day, sun up to sun down cutting with 30 minutes off for lunch, the weight of a saw isn't a problem until you get into the 90cc range, then weight differences of say 1 pound become more noticeable.

For instance, in the 70-80cc range you have lighter 440/372's and heavier 460/576AT's and some in the middle of the 1 pound of wieght range, yet it make little difference for all day work, yet many on this site that will complain the loudest about a few ounces are the ones that use the saws the least, LOL.

Indianspring's workers are a fine example of a heavier but more efficient 261 being the saw of choice for all day cutting of firewood in a professional setting, the 346 is lighter ...... and still nobody wants to run it, and his workers that don't have an axe to grind (Stihl vs Husky), they just need a tool that gets the job done, naturally a good worker will gravitate toward the tool that most assists a guy/gal in getting that work done quickly, efficiently and comfortably.

I have found that the choice of a saw in the difference CC brackets is best chosen based on the potential work that can be performed within a synergistic design or grouping of parts, and not so much dependant on a couple of seconds faster in the cookie cutting times or being lighter or heavier by a few ounces or sideways balance or other such statistics that make a good showing in writing or on charts or short videos, but don't quite add up enough to offset other detriments or holes in the efficiency bracket when it comes to real world cutting.

Sam

+1

There really shouldn't be any confusion. The 60cc class has always been, and likely always will be, the realm of arborists, farmers/ranchers and firewood getters. A wild thing isn't gonna do it for these guys, nor will they need a 70cc saw most of the time. And most of them want something of quality that will last. They often can write off a bit of it on taxes/equipment expenditures, so will give a bit more than a homeowner's saw usually goes for. A quality 60cc saw OTD is usually in the 500-600$ range. I've already seen the 562xps in the high 600's, and it's only just out. It is difficult to get a 70cc pro saw for less than $800.

As for weight, it all depends. A 361 is 12lbs 12 ounces on Neal's scale. A 262xp is 13lbs 2 ounces. Has anyone placed a 562 on a scale yet? Mitch? When you gonna weigh that 555?
In any case, these are at least 2lbs less than the lightest 70cc saws actual weights. In another thread, a fully loaded 361 VS a fully loaded 372xp is a difference of 2.5 lbs with the same B&C. So, let's say yer a farmer, ya got some scrilla and ya wanna bust out proper for the trees chillin in your hood, you lift a 372xt and then a 555, both will have a bar on them in the shop(the 372 most likely having a longer bar on it maybe adding as much as another 1.5lbs+ coz that's how it rollls, yo), and ya think, "$250 less and it weighs a few pounds less and has the power of a 60cc saw" and then the salesman immediately agrees and starts the tab because you forgot to use your inside voice again. It's almost a no brainer, really. I can see the old ranch owner I did most my work with in Oregon thinking that exact thing, because that is how they thought when they purchased their saws previously. "That saw is for loggers - I'm not a logger" is one of the quotes I recall. Of course, the work I ended up doing for them put my ported 385XP to the test on occasion. But that is how they looked at it.

The most popular saw I ran in to in England was a 60cc class saw. But, then again, I did see a couple 70cc saws wearing 18" bars...

Then there's this: If you build it, they will come. Something I find is that when you have a large saw, the large saw work comes your way. So those of us that work at it professionally may be confused by a 60cc as well. Well, until you do some arborist work. I found myself in the middle of Rhododendron, apple, cherry, and mulberry trees etc etc on occasion in England. I couldn't wave my 385xp with a 24" bar around in them. I switched to an Echo CS-520 or an MS261. Both of those saws can easily be replaced with a 562xp and a 16-18" bar. Even if you are not an arborist, do you REALLY wanna spend $800-900 on a saw to pull an 18" bar for work? Nah, I don't - at least not without it being ported to within an inch of it's life. And if you are an arborist, you sure as hell don't, either.

As for lightweight materials - they already use Magnesium, which isn't nearly as cheap as aluminum is. At least in pro saws, they do. Looking at what a 372Xp can do, I am quite impressed they can charge so little in this country for it. I assume the profit margins are relatively shallow on many models. Where can you save weight on a saw? The flywheel has to weigh what it does. Same with the clutch. You could use titanium in some areas, but this makes Magnesium look dirt cheap. I think Titanium is heavier than magnesium, anyways. So where else can ya save weight? The plastics? Your choices there are carbon fiber or very thin fiberglass. Fiberglass isn't gonna happen. But what's not gonna happen more is carbon fiber. When you make tubes with carbon fiber, you can actually use machines to do the work because it is simply wrapping it. Even so, carbon fiber tubes are not cheap. Now when it comes to a compound surface, it has to be hand laid. Even if they made it in china(where the plastics can be made, too), it would raise the costs and lower the reliability and increase the failure rate. A scratch on plastic makes it look used. A scratch on carbon causes serious structural integrity issues and fraying. Kevlar? It also costs quite a bit as well, sometimes twice as much as carbon fiber rolls. I dunno if it would be any lighter, I dunno how big an ounce of kevlar laminate is.

If you ask me, the major weight savings for chainsaws in the foreseeable future is in the bars.

+1

Rep coming for making good sense in the real world!

 

[funky sawman]

the 562 might be 1.5 lbs lighter, which isn't much BUT the 562 is WAY more fuel efficient, When felling on a strip, a guy wont have to pack as much extra fuel, that makes A HUGE difference. So far, I have found that a 562 will cut the same if not faster than a 372XT in 18 inch wood. But bigger than 24" wood the 372 takes the prize respectively.

 

[sawfun9]

One cannot expect a 10mm wrench to do the job of a 12mm wrench or vice versa. As was said before, the right tool for the right job. There is a reason saw manufacturers make different size saws, and I doubt it's mostly for AS members. Yes you can get titanium rods for small block Chevy's so it wouldn't be out of the question for any other engine, in fact the Acura NSX had them for a while. Most top fuel cars use a large amount of titanium, just look at the valve covers, restraint brackets, and there was a titanium oil pan with a steel liner available. We used titanium clutches and just about all the bell housings have been Ti. for years (decades). Still that being said, you have to be in some kind of physical shape to use a chainsaw or any other particular tool. Depending on the circumstances sometimes the heavier saw with more power makes the job go much faster and ends up with me bent over for less time thereby actually saving my back. The 064 is supposed to be the Stihl with one of the best power to weight ratios made. But unless the wood was over 24", my 460 was faster. So power, be it torque or horsepower (speed) doesn't always have a lot to do in the different real world circumstances we find ourselves in. Lets just enjoy the saws we have, since some day they may come up with a cold laser or sonic method of cutting and that would certainly have less character than saws. Just look at electric saws, sure they are somewhat efficient but they are a bit like using an electric blender, not much character.