Reduction Via Thinning of a large Oak

[Tree Morphogene]

Just a short (OK, 13 minutes long) video of us doing some subtle and sympathetic size management to an Oak.

What I hope you like are the images at the back end showing the tree in the winter before, before on the day in August 2012, after and then in the winter following.

Find it here - Reduction Via Thinning, Oak, Stockport Cheshire. Tree Morphogenesis (by Cheshire Tree Surgeons) - YouTube

 

[Tree Morphogene]

Tree Morphogenesis book 1 available for FREE download

Hello fellow Arborists

My book, "Tree Morphogenesis book 1 Reduction Via Thnning Theory", unveiling new and innovative research into tree morphology, branch architecture, tree dynamics and all leading to an enlightened approach to the management of trees, is available for free download from the 26th of August and for a few days beyond.

I am seeking reviews and comments from others like me, that is people who experience tree tops and wind, first hand.

 

[Pelorus]

What I hope you like are the images at the back end showing the tree in the winter before, before on the day in August 2012, after and then in the winter following.

Sorry, but I think the work that was done was both unnecessary and possibly detrimental (large heartwood exposures from lower limb removals).

 

[murphy4trees]

I think so too.. though I didn't watch the whole thing.. I try not to leave any cuts bigger than 4" on the main stem.. not sure what your purpose was ... don't see how leaving a 12" + wound, which will certainly decay to the point of serious structural compromise, does "morphology, branch architecture, tree dynamics" much good.. I would like to read your writing though.. trying to keep an open mind... can you post a link?

Thanks

 

[Tree Morphogene]

I think so too.. though I didn't watch the whole thing.. I try not to leave any cuts bigger than 4" on the main stem.. not sure what your purpose was ... don't see how leaving a 12" + wound, which will certainly decay to the point of serious structural compromise, does "morphology, branch architecture, tree dynamics" much good.. I would like to read your writing though.. trying to keep an open mind... can you post a link?

Thanks

If you didn't watch to the end, you missed the best bit, that is, the still images, all taken from the same standpoint with before and after winter and summer profiles. Jump to the last 30 seconds (dammit, I knew that video was too long!)

The rationale for that job explaining the various reasons "why" is written under the video where it is hosted on Youtube.

Just do a Google search for Tree Morphogenesis and you will find that link on the first page.

 

[murphy4trees]

OK ,
I watched the last 3 minutes... poor tree! making those big cuts... you call that progress... its butchery...
and thinning is not reduction...
sorry bro...
no interest in finding out any more...

 

[Tree Morphogene]

OK ,

thinning is not reduction...

.

If the branches thinned are the Primary branches, then thinning those does effect a subtle reduction in the overall size.

The gaps allow light to penetrate and re-animate branches in the process of suppression within the canopy.

We will have to wait 6-8 to see the next phase of this particular project but the five case histories from the back of the book are now available for you to look at (Case Histories). I have included the story behind each project for you to determine if what we did was measured, sensitive and effective.

Some of them have been pruned multiple times so you can see the succession of pruning passes and their effects and even the economics of the projects.

This work is intended to spark debate and give you some unusual perspectives, some of which will be new to you but you would have to gamble 2 hours of your life to determine if I'm full of it or somebody who is genuinely trying to advance the evolution of Arboriculture and improve the way that the general public relate to and understand their own trees.

I have put everything into this, then I made it really convenient and free for you to see it so please don't close your mind until you have scanned it at least. That is the only way that you will learn first hand, if I really do have any surprises for you.

 

[murphy4trees]

If the branches thinned are the Primary branches, then thinning those does effect a subtle reduction in the overall size.

We will have to wait 6-8 to see the next phase

In lay terms one might condiser thinning to be reducing the size of the tree.. in arb terms thinning and reduction are complete opposites..
In arboriculture vocabulary reduction is not thinning.. reduction is "reducing" the length of branches, or tipping back the top and sides limbs, while leaving the inner foliage....


International Society of Arboriculture

from the ISA arb dictionary:
reduction: pruning to decrease height and/or spread of a branch or crown (see drop-crotch pruning)

reduction cut: pruning cut that reduces the length of a branch or stem back to a lateral branch large enough to assume apical dominance....


crown thinning: in pruning, the selective removal of live branches to reduce crown density.... (not a very good definition IMO as thinning generally refers to removal of lower and interior limbs and specifically NOT the reduction of branch tips)

6-8 years is not enough time to see the damage you've done.. those big cuts on the trunk are sure to decay throughout the existing live wood of the trunk, leaving a hollow.. you'll of course be dead by then and some arb that has yet to be born will have to remove the tree, and no one will remember that it was YOU that killed it.

 

[Tree Morphogene]

6-8 years is not enough time to see the damage you've done.. those big cuts on the trunk are sure to decay throughout the existing live wood of the trunk, leaving a hollow.. you'll of course be dead by then and some arb that has yet to be born will have to remove the tree, and no one will remember that it was YOU that killed it.

I would give you good odds against that outcome.

We would have to wait 8 years, but are you a betting man and further to that, do you put your money where your mouth is?

I'm not a gambler but I don't consider the outcome of this wager to be in any doubt whatsoever. This is a big, healthy and vigorous Oak in absolutely ideal growing conditions and I expect callus to roll across from the edges at about 1" per year.

It may take less time but I'm sure that you would agree that once that wound has occluded, the bet would be over?

Also, what was your opinion of the five case histories taken from the book that I posted a link to earlier?

 

[murphy4trees]

This is a big, healthy and vigorous Oak in absolutely ideal growing conditions and I expect callus to roll across from the edges at about 1" per year.

It may take less time but I'm sure that you would agree that once that wound has occluded, the bet would be over?

Merely showing your ignorance.. wound closure with callous growth does not stop the decay.... sounds like you need to understand the basics of tree science as they are understood today (as flawed as it is) before you transcend...

 

[Tree Morphogene]

I just tried to send this to your private message box but you need to clear some first...


Hi my fiercest critic,

I wanted to thank you for the criticism (genuinely), please keep it coming.

I also wanted to ask you if you could send me details of jobs that you have done, that you feel righteously proud of. Not to discuss on the forum you understand (unless you want to), but just for us to discuss between us.

I had hoped to see what you do on your website but the link redirects to a Chinese site. Can you send me your website URL?

David

 

[Tree Morphogene]

I had hoped to see what you do on your website but the link redirects to a Chinese site. Can you send me your website URL?

David

No worries, just found your site and from the brief look it is absolutely clear that you are a sensitive, talented and principled Arborist.

You and I should be agreeing.

Fully recognising your professionalism, if you of all people disagree with me (once you have read my book) I take that seriously and I would be very interested to understand exactly why.

Daniel, I'm asking you to please read my book so that we can then have detailed discussions on this forum in order to define exactly where we differ.

 

[murphy4trees]

tree pruning berwyn PA - YouTube

Tree Pruning Malvern PA.mov - YouTube

Proper Tree Pruning Paoli PA 19301 .mov - YouTube

tree pruning wayne PA 19087.mov - YouTube

and the most unconventional
proper prune 1 big tulip limb.mov - YouTube

I do appreciate that we can share our differences of opinion with a bit of curiosity...
still not sure why the big mystery.. if you want accurate feedback , let us know what your deal is..

 

[Tree Morphogene]

My deal?

I want to make a dent in the gulf of misunderstanding that seems to have evolved between people and trees.

I'm using this book to do that and for some people it does achieve that, I am told and some of those who expressed, have become my clients.

I want to creatively combine with anybody who can help me drive the empathic message and deliver the service as described. Tuning trees!

I'm still proving myself to you and that book is how I have devised to do just that, and in the process overcome your natural and entirely reasonable scepticism.

 

[NCTREE]

he's said a whole lot, a whole of nothing. it's just a bunch of bs to sell his book and make a profit. he comes off like some cult tree guru talking in tongues. I smell a phony.

 

[Reg]

he's said a whole lot, a whole of nothing. it's just a bunch of bs to sell his book and make a profit. he comes off like some cult tree guru talking in tongues. I smell a phony.

I came across David Lloyd Jones about 20 years ago when I first started contract climbing, worked a couple of days for him then, never since. From memory he clearly knew his stuff, loved his family, his work, and seemed a good mentor to his guys. A business man for sure....but not a money grabbing fukcer at all. Probably nothing much has changed. Whether you agree with his ideas or not, give him a chance. Not a phony.

 

[Tree Morphogene]

he's said a whole lot, a whole of nothing. it's just a bunch of bs to sell his book and make a profit. he comes off like some cult tree guru talking in tongues. I smell a phony.

I didn't realise that Amazon gave a preview but was delighted when I realised that it gave the preview up to the beginning of Chapter 2 because that is also where the insights begin.

Each Chapter introduces a new concept that build and stack subtly right through to to Chapter 9. 10 summarises then the five case histories (now available on the website for you to preview) and the epilogue. The juice you seek is in 2-9 inclusive.

I do plan to create some brief presentations on Youtube etc to describe and illustrate some of the specific insights in detail, all intended to overcome your or anybody's entirely reasonable natural scepticism by tweaking your interest. Anyway, in 3 days time you will know for yourself one way of another.

Anyway, smell is the weakest and least discerning sense that you could possibly use to assess me and this body of work, and that is why I have written a book ; -)

 

[Pelorus]

If you remove larger lower limbs on a mature tree (as shown in the video in the link), are you not reducing the live crown ratio??? Doing something like this purely for aesthetic considerations (and presumably a paycheque) should not be confused with "tree care", sympathetic or not!

 

[Tree Morphogene]

If you remove larger lower limbs on a mature tree (as shown in the video in the link), are you not reducing the live crown ratio??? Doing something like this purely for aesthetic considerations (and presumably a paycheque) should not be confused with "tree care", sympathetic or not!

You are quite right, that branch WAS removed for aesthetic reasons but I don't do such things lightly and please don't suggest that I am motivated by money. I most certainly AM motivated by lack of money but never so much that i will compromise my own principles and I have made a name around Cheshire by convincing a some enquirers that they and their tree needed no work whatsoever. Then they usually refer me with confidence (and surprisingly regularly), because they trust the advice that I give.

I like to leave trees with a form that encourages the client to look at it, enjoy it and treasure it all the more. I think this tree's form was wonderful before and I'm fiercely proud that I have pruned it, resolved strategic issues and it still looks wonderful.

Removing that low side branch has reduced conflicts with the neighbours and please remember that this job was prompted by the owner getting frequent requests from many of her neighbours to cut the tree down!

Now, the neighbours have almost universally acknowledged that the tree is an asset to them all and a wonderful thing to contemplate from their back gardens.

Yes, a large branch was removed, and that is no part of RVT, but there are absolutely no further changes planned to the structural elements in the future, so what you see is how this tree will look for as long as infrequent RVT's are continued.

This is a tree that had started to create tension between neighbours, now it doesn't.

Personally, I hope that sets the scene for this trees retention and appreciation for the longest term. I do need to get back to do a 1 year on photo as well and I will post a copy here.