Rigging a Retainer Line

[chris_girard]

Question for you guys regarding setting a holding line as an extra precaution when felling trees with side lean close to structures. I know that the best position should be in lead with the side lean and 90 deg. to the direction of fall.

The tree that I'm removing is a 90' plus eastern white pine that is near a house. There is room to fell it in the back yard without me having to climb and piece it out, and that is how I bid the job. My problem is that the only tree that I can rig a holding line to is about 6-8' adjacent to the pine, which I think is very close.

My concern is that the height, angle, and run in the line will be too close and cause me to miss the lay due to the tree drawing over too much as it is falling. Any suggestions on what the best height and placement for the retaining line should be in this kind of situation? A tapered hinge alone will not be enough.

Thanks
Chris

 

[xander9727]

I would not use a tapered hinge. I would cut a traditional hinge and bore cut the tree to set my hinge wood (10% of DBH) and cut out until there is approx 2" of holding wood on the back (away from the hinge). I would then set my wedges and then and only then make a back cut 1-2" above my bore cut. You then need to drive the wedges in to break the holding wood and start the tree in the intended direction of fall. When cutting your notch you need to make sure you adjust for the side lean. The tree will follow the hinge but if it has 15' of off center lean at the top it will land 15' off center. Additionally you should set your wedge on the side the tree is leaning torwards to help and compensate for the lean (so it does increase). If you have additional questions PM me with your phone #. I use precision felling several times a week to avoid unneccessary climbing.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

I've always considered a rope tie off to be a help in getting the tree to tip or keep it from going the wrong way if the hinge broke. Most of the felling direction is set by the hinge. If you screw up the hinge the rope can either help or hinder depending on your luck.

 

[glens]

That sounds about right to me, though I'd likely go with a tad bit less hinge.  Too much hinge material brings its own problems to the table.

6 to 8 feet is way too close to be of any benefit for the anchor on a side-retainer line for a tree that size.  That line should attach to the subject at about the midpoint of its mass and as close to horizontal as practical.  Saying 40' up and 8' to the side only nets 78° from the horizon; 12° from vertical.  Ideally, the line should be 45° or flatter.

Tapered hinge formed precisely by boring the back, and swinging the bar back mostly through the compression side of the cut, so the back strap is offset to the tension side a bit.&nbsp; Then wedge(s) set into the back/compression side for security as 'xander mentioned.&nbsp; Then cutting the back strap <i>below</i> the back cut is what I'd usually do.&nbsp; But I can't see that tree so I really can't say...

Glen

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Pulling at an angle to lay with line (or pushing likewise with wedge) countering the lean, unloads that part of the lean from the hinge.

The hinge is a leveraging device; so if it is good wood etc.; i prefer to pull to target in direction, to force stronger hinge, then let that strength in return fight the side lean. So, i say, force a hinge stronger (with direction of pull to target); then use a tapered hinge to leverage that strength against the sidelean.

The more pressure of the sidelean, that is on hinge, the more hinge (and later at closing face) tries to self correct. So in pulling an opposing 90 ( so balance of your pull and lean pull end in target) pits you agianst the sidelean, without hinge leverage. For part of the pull of the hinge, is the load on it.

If faced N, and leaning NW; SE hinge pulls hardest in response; you correctting with NE pull, unloads the SE Pull of the hinge naturally. The gain is not as true, as there was a loss of Natural help. Also, against a NW pull, a SE pull will be most leveraged position of pull.

If the strength/elasticicty of the hinge isn't up to the task, then pull in countering 90 to balance to center; otherwise i think; take the long way and arch your effort through the hinge multiplier for highest return.

It is not just jsut the power, but direction too that is of equal importance. In fact, without direction, there can be no power; for the push or pull must be headed somewhere!

Or something like that,
:alien: :alien:

 

[NeTree]

Sounds like reason to take a ride north and show the kids how it's done.

 

[wiley_p]

Make sure you watch that cut!

 

[murphy4trees]

Absolutely use a tapered hinge!!!

You could back up the close retainer line with a second retainer by setting up a second ground anchor... drive some pins or a digging bar with back up.... See Tom D's army rigging manual...

Make 100% sure there is no bypass on the face cuts and consider using the tapered hinge with a slightly adjusted gun..

Gotta go more later

 

[chris_girard]

Thanks guys for all the tips and suggestions. Every bit helps.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

And......

All the line stuff were you asked is great advice.

But, too as Daniel and Wiley note; all that proper line force can be set agianst you with a sloppy cut; allowing a dutchman/ shelf/ kerf in hinge face. For this inner face becomes the smallest constraint on the duration of hinging, thereby the operative one; giving very early closing face and immediate ripping of hinge engaged (or stall).

The hinge is a pull, the faces closing a push that relieves the hinge pull and takes over. The line pull or wedge force added, works on the hinge pull, not so much face push. The push wants seperation from the guidance of the stump/hinge making it a free flying agent. The hinge pull works on riding this stump guidance.

So, we go for wide face cut too, to ride that longer, with no crossed cuts, to prematurely end that ride on hinge on one or both sides of the hinge base. In some experimental trees, real wide faces ya might see, that the gunning of the face matters less than the backcut; for the closing faces (if at all) came so late, mattered so little. In kerf facing for snap cut or hop of branches, backcutting across like tapered can make the face immediatley close and pop in the opposite direction, for here is the opposite, no ride on hinge, all sudden face slam - counter steering!

 

[John Ellison]

There are some opposing sugestions here. I would go with the tapered hinge and setting another retaining line out farther than the tree that is 6-8 ft away. Like has been mentioned you could make your own anchor.
You didnt mention whether there was any back lean or not. I see no reason to bore cut a back leaner. Myself, I would much rather take a strain on the pull line, start the back cut, and then work the tree to a verticle balance and on over by retensioning the pull line as needed.

John

 

[chris_girard]

Mike I will be drawing up a picture in paint and save it as a jpeg. file so you guys can see my cutting plan.

I'll be doing that later today, right now I am going to do a little footlocking workout in some oaks.

Chris

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

a tip from Glens that has worked very well for me; for drawings and not photographs:

When drawing, for smallest file size of same picture;
Save as .Gif, the very first time you save.

 

[Nickrosis]

Originally posted by TheTreeSpyder
a tip from Glens that has worked very well for me; for drawings and not photographs:

When drawing, for smallest file size of same picture;
Save as .Gif, the very first time you save.

Good advice. And if ever in doubt with mixed drawings/photographs...use a JPG.

 

[chris_girard]

Too late, I already saved it as a jpeg. Hopefully it is OK.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i saved your picture always comes out in .BMP (takes lots of bytes for same picture); then edited and saved into .GIF to keep the filesize down.

'Pencil' drawings not too big anyway, but still might be 2,000k in .BMP, 60K in .JPG or 15K in GIF. .JPG and .GIF (making .gif originally, is ~60k converting from .BMP; prolly alil higher converting from .JPG) size differance more dramatic in more complicated drawings i think.

First thing is to asses risk to building, and tree; responsibilities there in. Pretty tight lay, nothing written in Dutch option here that would be controllable for me i think.....

As far as pure puzzle crunching, brain storming; these less traveled trails came to mind for openers.

Invisible Button for Seeing Pix that are Smaller than Drawn etc.

:alien:

 

[NeTree]

Without having seen the actual trees, from your drawing it looks like that oak tree is going to screw you. Even if the pine makes it by it, it may break something off and send it on the roof.

If the oak next to the pine you're removing is big enough, you're probably better off climbing up and rigging the pine out in pieces from that. Barring that, rigging off itself is your best bet.

I wouldn't be so worried about using that close oak for a swing line so much as clearing the other oak while still having clearance for limbs to make it by the house.

Know what I mean?

 

[chris_girard]

Spyder, great drawings in assesing the existing conditions, and different options to use. Thanks for the tips on paint & jpeg different files.

Erik, I think that oak in front of the pine is going to screw me. I may have to piece out that pine if the lay is too tight and eat the cost of bidding low.

Chris

 

[NeTree]

Depending on HOW low you bid it, it might not make all that much of a difference; maybe a coupla hours more to climb it out versus flopping it.

 

[xander9727]

Having more info now I have to agree with Erik. If you at least clean the branches off you'll have a much easier lay. Usually pines don't take very long to piece out. Then again I'm only imagining the conditions based on the drawing.