mdrlandscaping
ArboristSite Lurker
what type of stuff do i need like ropes carbiners and so on
rigging
- Thread starter mdrlandscaping
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Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
Gee, it's a long road when that sort of question is asked.
Honestly, watch the Art and Science of Practical Rigging video series, then you'll understand better what it is you'll exactly need for each situation.
Honestly, watch the Art and Science of Practical Rigging video series, then you'll understand better what it is you'll exactly need for each situation.
arboralliance
ArboristSite Operative
Yes...
Sound advice from Ekka, the list can be endless, personal preference is the norm after years of trying the options, more than a harness/saddle and rope is required if you are intending on climbing more than the front porch railing...Ekka said:
Bermie
Addicted to ArboristSite
Knowledge....
Rigging can be tricky, get some training so you understand what can go wrong and what right looks like!
Rigging can be tricky, get some training so you understand what can go wrong and what right looks like!
woodchux
Addicted to ArboristSite
mdrlandscaping said:
Start with a good life insurance policy...
i wish you'd type faster, it all ways slows me down when you don't.
This is best L-earned on ground; helping someone else as they rig. Lots of forces and considerations. Then, some on own, watching videos, Internet posts; attending a few local events and 4+ years practice before you take it to the next level and then realize you are just starting to get a glimpse of a clue and are lucky not to be dead, and start cycle about over. Gear comes in as you go, to your exposure and style. Best to start out with good climbing skills, good rope and knots; with degree in physics; worry about krabs etc. later; get brain bucket with chinstrap etc. now.
This is best L-earned on ground; helping someone else as they rig. Lots of forces and considerations. Then, some on own, watching videos, Internet posts; attending a few local events and 4+ years practice before you take it to the next level and then realize you are just starting to get a glimpse of a clue and are lucky not to be dead, and start cycle about over. Gear comes in as you go, to your exposure and style. Best to start out with good climbing skills, good rope and knots; with degree in physics; worry about krabs etc. later; get brain bucket with chinstrap etc. now.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
If you are a landscaper, find a tree company that will sub out a climber to work with you. That will give you the OJT you need.
If you are going to get a climber of your own, then PPE, 2 ropes and a saw is the bare minimum kit needed. Start small and work your comfort level up as you go, then add carabiners, friction breaks and pullies into the mix.
If you are going to get a climber of your own, then PPE, 2 ropes and a saw is the bare minimum kit needed. Start small and work your comfort level up as you go, then add carabiners, friction breaks and pullies into the mix.
beowulf343
Addicted to ArboristSite
Oh fantastic!! First I hear around here that you should be a ca before you get into tree work. Then it doesn't hurt to get a degree in forestry or biology. Now you should have a degree in physics?! Come on, what's next? Why not get a degree in metallurgy so we can make our own hand saw blades. Let's get a degree in mechanical engineering so we can tear down and rebuild our chainsaws. Hey, lets take a course in weaving so we can make our own ropes. How about a medical degree so that when we hurt ourselves, we don't have to go to the hospital but just sew it up ourselves. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for learning and increasing one's knowledge, but come one, sometime all the book learning won't help you-you just have to go out there and give it a try!TheTreeSpyder said:
jmcguiretree
ArboristSite Member
You tell him!!!:notrolls2:
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
beowulf343 said:
I think that was hyperboli???
jomoco
Tree Freak
A word of warning about carabiners
Carabiners are very handy and definitely have their place in an arborist's tool bag.
That said, they should never, I repeat never be used as the primary source of support for a climbers body line or life line. Many climbers have been seriously hurt or crippled by making this mistake.
Also carabiners should never be used to secure bull lines or other heavy duty forms of rigging, that should always be done by using drop forged steel clevis shackles of the appropriate size for the given application, that's what they're made for. Many people that I know of first hand have been seriously injured by using a carabiner in rigging situations where a clevis shackle should have been used, they paid a very heavy price for that fundamental mistake when the carabiners failed.
Work Safe!
jomoco
Carabiners are very handy and definitely have their place in an arborist's tool bag.
That said, they should never, I repeat never be used as the primary source of support for a climbers body line or life line. Many climbers have been seriously hurt or crippled by making this mistake.
Also carabiners should never be used to secure bull lines or other heavy duty forms of rigging, that should always be done by using drop forged steel clevis shackles of the appropriate size for the given application, that's what they're made for. Many people that I know of first hand have been seriously injured by using a carabiner in rigging situations where a clevis shackle should have been used, they paid a very heavy price for that fundamental mistake when the carabiners failed.
Work Safe!
jomoco
beowulf343
Addicted to ArboristSite
Ha, ha. You think? No offense meant toward Treespyder-seems to be one of the more intelligent posters on this site. Just didn't agree with that one phrase.John Paul Sanborn said:
Ryan Willock
Addicted to ArboristSite
jomoco, what do you mean they shouldn't be used for life support??? Thats what they are MADE for! What are you doing to get off the ground if you're not using biners? Tieing in directly to your sadle with the life line and the tieing you're hitch with the tale of the line? I must be misunderstanding you, please clearify.
jomoco
Tree Freak
I'm old school and very conservative about my life
I'm very aware that a growing number of climbers are using a variety of carabiners as their primary life line support attachment, many of them have paid a high price for it.
I myself don't mind using them for a body line redirect, but will never use them as a primary attachment for my body line, they make drop forged double locking rope clips for that, and that's what I use.
I'm not a rock climber, I'm a demolition climber in the commercial tree care industry that believes you should use the best equipment available for the job you do.
I've seen aluminum carabiners fail many times, firsthand, I know climbers that have broken their backs when their ropes have rolled out of a carabiner. But I have never seen a drop forged steel rope clip fail yet ( knock on wood ).
I'm speaking from 33 years of climbing experience, and readers of this site are free to take or leave my posted advice as they see fit.
Respectfully,
jomoco
Ryan Willock said:
I'm very aware that a growing number of climbers are using a variety of carabiners as their primary life line support attachment, many of them have paid a high price for it.
I myself don't mind using them for a body line redirect, but will never use them as a primary attachment for my body line, they make drop forged double locking rope clips for that, and that's what I use.
I'm not a rock climber, I'm a demolition climber in the commercial tree care industry that believes you should use the best equipment available for the job you do.
I've seen aluminum carabiners fail many times, firsthand, I know climbers that have broken their backs when their ropes have rolled out of a carabiner. But I have never seen a drop forged steel rope clip fail yet ( knock on wood ).
I'm speaking from 33 years of climbing experience, and readers of this site are free to take or leave my posted advice as they see fit.
Respectfully,
jomoco
Blinky
ArboristSite Operative
jomoco said:
With equal respect to your wisdom and experience I have to at least say this in defense of carabiners.
I have a similar amount of experience climbing... though I'm a rock climber, not a demolition climber and I've rapelled on single aluminum carabiners, aid climbed for hours suspended on them, seen them beat against rock repeatedly and taken loooonnng leader falls on them and never seen or heard of anything worse than a stuck or bent gate.
I wouldn't use an aluminum 'biner for rigging because the loads generated are tremendously higher than a falling climber, but for a lifeline that split tail is what bothers me... rope melts and fatigues a lot worse than metal.
Accessory biners are another matter. I would just as soon they were never invented. It's too easy for people to mistakenly use one for load bearing and that's a sure setup for failure.
Again, I respect your attitude and I'm not trying to change your mind... it's just that carabiners have been very good to me over the years. I trust'em.
Bermie
Addicted to ArboristSite
screwgate or triple action?
What kind of krabs have you seen fail and how? I'm curious.
I use triple action self locking krabs, even have one with four actions to open, it's on my steel core for removals. I can understand a simple screwgate working its way open, but the triple actions are specifically designed for arborist work.
I went to the DMM factory in Wales, their testing regime is way strict. If a certain % of a batch fail the stress testing they bin the lot.
Hey, I guess it all comes down to what makes you comfortable up in de trees!
What kind of krabs have you seen fail and how? I'm curious.
I use triple action self locking krabs, even have one with four actions to open, it's on my steel core for removals. I can understand a simple screwgate working its way open, but the triple actions are specifically designed for arborist work.
I went to the DMM factory in Wales, their testing regime is way strict. If a certain % of a batch fail the stress testing they bin the lot.
Hey, I guess it all comes down to what makes you comfortable up in de trees!
beowulf343
Addicted to ArboristSite
Me too.Bermie said:
I prefer the aluminum rope snaps myself but that's simply because I hate trying to open one of those triple locking carabiners with my heavy winter gloves on-what a pita! But I can honestly say I've never seen a carabiner fail on a climber when they are used properly. Heck, some of the carabiners these days have a better tensile strength than the steel rope snaps.
jomoco
Tree Freak
I won't name companies or names
However I'll be happy to discuss the circumstances in which the failures occured.
The broken back incident happened with a screw lock carabiner that somehow became lodged sideways, this allowed the dynamic rope action to unscrew it to the point that the gate failed under tensile pressure and the climber hit the ground hard.
Indeed the bulk of carabiner related accidents occur when tensile forces are applied to the gate mechanism when again it somehow shifts sideways from jostling.
One of the accidents happened when a novice logger used an aluminum DMM
double locking carabiner to secure a bull line for dragging a large cedar log with a tracked bobcat, it literally twisted and straightened the carabiner as the gate mechanism shattered. The man that rigged it was an idiot of course but it was an experienced older man that went to the hospital with multiple fractures of his left arm for standing too close to a novice without paying attention to what he was really doing. I felt bad because it was a big cedar that I had felled the day before. This accident occured in Lake Arrowhead.
Another climber was using a double locking DMM carabiner in place of a rope clip when the limb he was on snapped, he had a fair amount of slack in his body line, fell about 10 or 15 feet, once again, somehow the carabiner was sideways when the slack ran out, the gate mechanism buckled, climber hit the ground, though fortunately for him, he was close enough to the ground when it happened that he was able to walk away,
Obviously it's the gate's of these carabiners that are the weak point. I myself found a somewhat expensive DMM carabiner that has a forged eye at the bottom of it that in my mind should help reduce the chances of side loading,
but as I mentioned I only use them as a body line redirect, never as a primary attachment point. Most of my carabiners get used for speed lining purposes, and those are made of steel. The aluminum ones can't take the friction heat and quickly develope a noticeable groove in them, making them useless for anything other than a key chain attachment.
Work Safe
jomoco
Bermie said:
However I'll be happy to discuss the circumstances in which the failures occured.
The broken back incident happened with a screw lock carabiner that somehow became lodged sideways, this allowed the dynamic rope action to unscrew it to the point that the gate failed under tensile pressure and the climber hit the ground hard.
Indeed the bulk of carabiner related accidents occur when tensile forces are applied to the gate mechanism when again it somehow shifts sideways from jostling.
One of the accidents happened when a novice logger used an aluminum DMM
double locking carabiner to secure a bull line for dragging a large cedar log with a tracked bobcat, it literally twisted and straightened the carabiner as the gate mechanism shattered. The man that rigged it was an idiot of course but it was an experienced older man that went to the hospital with multiple fractures of his left arm for standing too close to a novice without paying attention to what he was really doing. I felt bad because it was a big cedar that I had felled the day before. This accident occured in Lake Arrowhead.
Another climber was using a double locking DMM carabiner in place of a rope clip when the limb he was on snapped, he had a fair amount of slack in his body line, fell about 10 or 15 feet, once again, somehow the carabiner was sideways when the slack ran out, the gate mechanism buckled, climber hit the ground, though fortunately for him, he was close enough to the ground when it happened that he was able to walk away,
Obviously it's the gate's of these carabiners that are the weak point. I myself found a somewhat expensive DMM carabiner that has a forged eye at the bottom of it that in my mind should help reduce the chances of side loading,
but as I mentioned I only use them as a body line redirect, never as a primary attachment point. Most of my carabiners get used for speed lining purposes, and those are made of steel. The aluminum ones can't take the friction heat and quickly develope a noticeable groove in them, making them useless for anything other than a key chain attachment.
Work Safe
jomoco
To me a krab is not a redundant, 2 leg device like clevis; but rather a single leg of support hook. The gate just makes it a well moused hook IMLHO.
A locking snap is same; but is self righting. The captive round eye forces the load in hook to be carried on the long axis. A krab doesn't have this feature; thus the use of hitchings that cinch down/ won't move around; so as to try to keep krab self righted. Though, this doesn't exactly solve problem on hook end, as a krab also can have 'corners' that D's etc can find there way into.
Even with a gate welded shut, force should be carried across long axis, so as to 'only' leverage the short axis. Carrying load on short axis, leverages the long axis instead, and device is much weaker in this position unless square or round/ presenting equal length axises.
A locking snap is same; but is self righting. The captive round eye forces the load in hook to be carried on the long axis. A krab doesn't have this feature; thus the use of hitchings that cinch down/ won't move around; so as to try to keep krab self righted. Though, this doesn't exactly solve problem on hook end, as a krab also can have 'corners' that D's etc can find there way into.
Even with a gate welded shut, force should be carried across long axis, so as to 'only' leverage the short axis. Carrying load on short axis, leverages the long axis instead, and device is much weaker in this position unless square or round/ presenting equal length axises.
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