s.r.t. verses d.r.t. ?????????

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budroe69moni

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single rope technique vs. double rope technique??????

just curious.......
which do you prefer and why??????
advantages and disadvantages.........
let me know.
thanks guys,
budroe:cool:
 
When you say DRT do you mean using two ropes like rock climbers? Or do you mean Doubled Rope Technique [DDRT] where one rope is draped or doubled over a limb? There's a huge difference.

I SRT ALL OF THE TIME. Much quicker to set up since I never have to bother isolating the limb. If the SRT rope is anchored at the base of the tree there will be, at a minimum, a doubled load on the limb, more if the climber bounces. Marginal limbs should be avoided. Before I ascend, I always give several huge bounces on the rope from the ground. This has paid off over the years because I've broken a couple of rotten limbs out b efore I left terra firma.

Most of the time I use a 7/16" static line as an access line. This line stays in the tree incase its needed to get another climber up, send up gear, hang a chainsaw from, AR, etc. The access line isn't pulled until everything is done on the tree.

Tom
 
tom,
i'm talking about the doubled rope technique.
climbing up the ropes w/ the use of double foot locking
and not w/ any assistance from a mechanical assender.
i'm leaning towards the SRT myself......
what type of 7/16" static line do you use??????
i'm getting ready to invest in some new climbing gear.
any other pointers would be great!!!!
thanks,
budroe:cool:
 
I use both, DRT mostly because no one else I work with footlocks. I use doubled toothed asceners on a sewn diasey chain and backup with a klemhiest is going through leafy canopy. I've started fair leading the lines througn a biner on the center D, seems to help keeping me centered on the rope.

(BTW Tom, back is much better these days. Don't look as bad as I did when palying with you in MN.)

My SRT rig is one toothed ascender on the daiseychain with a ropeman for self belay/backup/ as Tom has said many times in the past, the RM is made for 10mm rope and does not have a wide ontact surface on the cam face with 1/2 in. My SRT rope is 10mm Bluewater static line, 200ft hank.

I use the Dunlap SRT anchor method, if Tom does not have a pic, I can make one.
 
I Use Dynamic With a Hand Ascender On a Daisy Chain and a Ankle Ascender I Dislike the footlocking technique. Doubled line thru a Friction saver.I also use a split tail Fairlead thru a Micro pulley as a safety in case the ascender slips so i dont end up hanging by my ankle. :eek:
 
is that a locking pully like a Traxion? dont thing a micro & pantin would be sufficient self belay. At least get a grab device in there.

invest in the static line, you will see a lot of differance. for easy math lets say the you have 2.5% streach at 5% of tensil (about 200 lbs), that is 5 feet on 200 ft of line, if the static is .5% then you have only 1 foot of yo-yo.
 
Mmmmmmmm, i think.............

as a static load hanging SRT(no bouncing etc.) on Overhead Anchor (OA?), ; i believe there would be 2x load with pulley (line draped, no friction) on OA, when controlled at ground. For, your weight would be powering 2 equivalent lines of pull on the OA (vertical pulls), with the pulley on the OA. as the control line would have to match the pull of the load to keep load raised, when there is no friction helping. Both these equivalent pulls pull on OA.

Then, load on OA would be equal to load, if just anchored totally above on OA, no control line pulling on the OA. Just a single overhead line terminating at OA (bowlined etc. to OA), only holds that load.

But, draping over a limb on OA, would be between the two numbers (load and 2x load), depending on the friction given by the 'frictional redirect' (non-pulley redirect) of the limb.

So that simply the load on the OA would be the sum of all lines pulling(typically load and control lines), which would be less on the control side with friction(no pulley), or other upper anchors bearing the load. But the friction of the redirect (anything that changes direction of rope movement i think, frictional or pulley -assume 0 friction for pulley) + the pull of the load on 1 side+ the pull of the control line on the other side will be 2x load .

But a tree climber's typical DDRT, would only equal the climber's weight(load), for all lines terminate at OA and climber, no pull comes from below climber, as the control line doubles as a load line, the OA would only carry the climber's load, pulley or not! But yet it is a 2/1 - friction when elevating yourself by pulling on 1 of the lines holding you.

So, {Load}={Single line terminating on OA}={DDRT on any OA(friction or pulley)} < {draped line's OA pull (load+control line pulls)} < {2xload}={same draped line (load line pull + control line pull)+ friction(that lessens the control line pull)}={pulley controlled load (no friction+load+tension on control line to keep load up; thereby matching load on its own}

So, more overhead friction, puts less pull on OA, by taking the load off the control line pulling on the anchor (replacing it with equivalent load carrying friction), and control lines at a slant, take progressively more load of an OA. Same in rigging loads. So if i am using a self tightenning rig, i will use overhead friction a lot to lessen anchor pull, while having less rope to stretch, thereby self setting quicker and positively for a machine without play in the works!

i don't mean to be picky, and i hope that is easy enuff to understand, for it is all around and i use it all the time for informed decisions, or just to exercise their creation, and beleive i got it write enuf to pass on!
 
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KC,

You've got the math worked out. The multiplying effect of SRT MUST be factored in when making the shift from DDRT to SRT. The same limb that worked for DDRT might not be beeffy enough for SRT. After my rope is set and the end tied off I give some bounces to set the rope. Before I go off the ground on my SRT I cinch up the slack and give some really hard bounces to check the limb.

My SRT rope is 7/16" Liberty/ABC rope. I like it fine. when I go a long way from the truck or expeditioning I use 3/8" line. Still plenty strong. The first few times 3/8" is used it feels like dental floss :) Lots less bulky and lighter too.

Tom
 
SRT

I guess its just a preference but I like to use the SRT. I just anchor to a neighbooring tree or if no other tree is near then I anchor to the tree I am climbing. I use the traditional climbing system with a bridge between the working side of my line and the running side of my line. Tie a Blakes hitch to the running end with a figure 8 stopper. Clove hitch to my carabiner and voila! I am set and ready to down some limbs.
 
Clove hitch slips, try an anchor or a bunt-line.

I'm not sure, bbut I think you misunderstand the SRT. On SRT the running end is belayed/anchored. A friction device (preferably two for system redundancy) is placed on the working end. the rope does not move through the crotch except for loading movment of said crotch ( just CMA for you stickliers out there).

Hence the term Single Rope Technique. We are ascending entilely on one line.

DdRT is simmilar except that the rope is draped over a crotch and both ends are ascended on.

The traditional method, or Closed Loop is DdRT using the TIP as a pully so you are pulling up 1/2 your load weigh + friction on the pulley (lets save the displacement of friction argument for another thread.) So for this you trade of having to FL twice as far. which is why many progressive climber will FL the entire load weight to get there faster.

The downside of DdRT is that you need to isolate your line good, and if working your waym up you need rescue, it becomes difficult.

With SRT, you may need a second line and crotch in lower, but by using the Dunlap anchor method (hmm I need a word starting with N to put in there so I can acronym it the ????;) ) a groundie can controled lower you down.

Now we need Mike to give us some diagrams.:D
 
I mostly use DdRT with French Prussick and ankle ascender(Pantim) but I do FL occasionaly as it can real quick and to keep my hand in.

I suppose I like the simplicity of not havying to change rigs ie I might be a little slower DdRT than FL but I don,t have to take Fl runner off,pull up end of life line,install Friction Hitch or rerig off an SRT setup.Just trying to keepit simple.One thing about Footlocking though it is less damaging to bark,some to keep in mind for short hops on soft barked trees.
SRt for big jobs with Grigri to lower with left and righthand Petzl ascenders with foot loops. Scott likes this for his Big tree climbing aswell.
 
SOunds like your talking about the contiuouse loop standard working configurations.

I'm getting confused now!:confused:

DdRT is FL up the single line draped over a crothc, like the FL done in any TCC.
 
JPS

Sorry, buddy. But between your made-up acronyms and your horrendous spelling, I get completely lost when you write posts like this. :(
 
JP

I agree with Brian on this. I appreciate you trying to explain all of this to me and the rest of us but I(as you know) have not been in the field long enough to understand some of the jargon and abbreviations. Not that it would matter if I had been in the field for long because Brian is an experienced arborist and he is seeming to have similar difficulty with it. If at all possible could you spell everything out. I(and I believe we) would have a better understanding of what you are saying.
 
Eager to learn

I have never used the DdRT. I am eager to learn it though just so I have a better basis for comparison. The SRT seems much simpler so thats why I would prefer it being a novice climber but I still want to learn DdRT.
 
Awww John

Its not gonna hurt ya to throw a few more letters into those posts. I do want to be able ton understand everything you write on here because I know your a wise man and I am very interested in what you have to say because I know that you know what your talking about. I look foward to your new and improved, non-abbreviated posts so I can read them and learn a thing or two.
 

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