Scary noob experience yesterday, please help

[reachtreeservi]

Here's my advice : Give up the treework.

Not because of the danger, but because it's the most expensive hobby you could ever chose.

The only way the cost of gear and equipment makes sense is if you make money with them.

I mean really...... Have you checked out the prices of this stuff ?


And doing it without the proper equipment is akin to sticking a gun with a hair trigger in your mouth while driving a deuce and a half down a washboard dirt road.

 

[sawinredneck]

Here's my advice : Give up the treework.

Not because of the danger, but because it's the most expensive hobby you could ever chose.

The only way the cost of gear and equipment makes sense is if you make money with them.

I mean really...... Have you checked out the prices of this stuff ?


And doing it without the proper equipment is akin to sticking a gun with a hair trigger in your mouth while driving a deuce and a half down a washboard dirt road.

:yourock: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:

He's right you know!!!
I used to "free climb" all of my jobs, my wife came and watched me work one day.
I got home that night, "I don't care, get what you need to do to do this safe, and I am never going to watch again!"

Well, $600 later she sees the bill, and no, I don't have all I need/want yet, she liked to died when she saw that bill!!!

Then the saws, oh the saws............................

 

[scotclayshooter]

I lopped a 6" branch off in the middle of a road standing on a load of branches tied onto a Transit tipper with the tipper up half way one handing the saw, The boss pulled up shook his head and just drove off!
Now we hire a long reach saw but still use the pick up for hight!

 

[moray]

... Let's concentrate on one thing, the way that branch blew up on me. ...Should I have cinched say for example a piece of kevlar webbing around the branch 6 inches above the cut to literally hold everything together and thus get a clean snap and a perfectly straight drop?

It sounds like your branch did a bit of a barber chair. Your remedy would undoubtedly have worked, but how would you have known it was likely to barber chair? Rather than do aerial work with a saw, why not tie a rope to the tree where you were cutting on it and pull it over? This should be simpler and safer. If you want to practice the aerial stuff, at least get some basic equipment before attempting it.

 

[capetrees]

The more you keep at it, the more you'll learn. Don't think that everyone in here hasn't made a mis-cut on occasion or haven't had shocking moments. Nothing in this business ifs perfect, no matter how much thought you put into it. Experience will be your best answer. Do more smaller jobs on smaller trees. get away from the ladder and get some of the basics of climbing gear. learn to use it but most importantly, plan for the worst and hope for the best. Make the right cuts and all will be well.

 

[panhead9]

WOW, Dude hit with TRIPLE BARRELS! He should draw a conclusion from that!
One way or another.

 

[madrone]

I think the safety issues have been discussed :deadhorse: but complete discouragement for this guy is over the top here.
If you want to learn from experience you accept the consequences of that choice. He wanted to cut this tree down and felt that he could help by doing some limbing first. Understandable. Not the best tactics but he'll learn and hopefully not hurt himself in the process.
Lesson for the day is Barberchairing. thats what happened to the limb and just imagine what it's like when it happen at the trunk of a big tree!!!
Basically, for a limb this size you just didn't cut fast enough. You have to anticipate that the limb has lots of tension and act accordingly. You didn't need a clean cut near the trunk cause you're not keeping the tree. Undercut a safe distance on the limb and make sure your body is completely out of the fall zone. Top cut a few inches further out and cut fast with a sharp chain and it'll drop clean.
Don't do this on bigger limbs. Call in help when you're out of your league. And be glad you didn't get hurt.:greenchainsaw:

 

[Plasmech]

I think the safety issues have been discussed :deadhorse: but complete discouragement for this guy is over the top here.
If you want to learn from experience you accept the consequences of that choice. He wanted to cut this tree down and felt that he could help by doing some limbing first. Understandable. Not the best tactics but he'll learn and hopefully not hurt himself in the process.
Lesson for the day is Barberchairing. thats what happened to the limb and just imagine what it's like when it happen at the trunk of a big tree!!!
Basically, for a limb this size you just didn't cut fast enough. You have to anticipate that the limb has lots of tension and act accordingly. You didn't need a clean cut near the trunk cause you're not keeping the tree. Undercut a safe distance on the limb and make sure your body is completely out of the fall zone. Top cut a few inches further out and cut fast with a sharp chain and it'll drop clean.
Don't do this on bigger limbs. Call in help when you're out of your league. And be glad you didn't get hurt.:greenchainsaw:

Yes let me take a few steps back here.

1. I have a day job, a pretty decent one. I intend to keep that.

2. I am not in a rush. We were actually working on my friend's property, we had all day. Unless I'm *really* trying to make money doing this stuff, I'm not going to rush, and even then I won't rush with a saw in my hands or a rope around me.

3. I'm doing this because I WANT to, always wanted to. Not to necessarily make money, just a fun hobby that *might* become profitable. I want to be like a pro someday, I look up to those guys / you guys. I have money for things like helmets and harnesses (harnii?) and climbing spikes, I'm not like poor.

4. I'm not *completely* green when it comes to the actual saws and cutting. I've gone through a LOT of 50:1 mix in my life.

5. I don't know #### about climbing. I was hoping that someone would reply to my OP telling me how I should have been roped in and with what gear. I understand that I needed to be blasted for that stupid move with the ladder but maybe like eventually we focus on the actual situation that occurred?

6. I don't see how telling me to hire a pro is constructive. I am trying to learn. And as madrone said, complete discouragement is completely over-the-top.

7. Thanks thanks THANKS for all the constructive replies and help so far!!!

:greenchainsaw:

 

[reachtreeservi]

Here you go then.

http://arbormaster.com/


Sign up for the climbing course. Then the climbing 2 course.
Then the rigging course. Then then the advanced rigging.

Throw in an aerial rescue course and you are good to go.


The courses are about 500 bucks each.

Add about 5000.00 for gear to get started. More will be needed later.
1600.00 for insurance and you will be well prepared to begin your new hobby.

 

[toddstreeservic]

whenever you are running a chainsaw in a tree you should be using at least 1 wirecore lanyard. IMO

 

[Nailsbeats]

You need to work for somebody part time or something as a groundman if you want to pick this up. Read all you want in books or here on the web, but you need experience. Groundman first, climber second. Otherwise you will go on being hurt or mediocre, neither of which are good enough for me.

BTW, on the cut, you had a problem because you didn't read the limb right and select the right cut. Without being there I would say that you probably needed a 1/3 or so undercut and a fast top cut meeting it or slightly back towards you 1" or so. Called a snap, jump, or mismatched cut. This cut does not establish a hinge to counter side weight on the limb so only use it if the limb doesn't look like it is heavy to one side and will actually twist when releasing, possibly binding and taking your saw with. If you have some side weight put a short notch, 1/3 limb diameter or so deep, in the underside and meet the apex of it with the top cut. The taller the notch, the farther the limb will pivot down before it releases.

 

[Plasmech]

Here you go then.

http://arbormaster.com/


Sign up for the climbing course. Then the climbing 2 course.
Then the rigging course. Then then the advanced rigging.

Throw in an aerial rescue course and you are good to go.


The courses are about 500 bucks each.

Add about 5000.00 for gear to get started. More will be needed later.
1600.00 for insurance and you will be well prepared to begin your new hobby.

I am on a $1,000 plan

Already own the saws, 192 TC and MS-290.

I'll make do with my book which is on order, some stuff from Bailey's, and any knowledge I can harvest on here amoungst all the messages telling me I should gire a pro and give up on day 2 :monkey:

 

[Plasmech]

You need to work for somebody part time or something as a groundman if you want to pick this up. Read all you want in books or here on the web, but you need experience. Groundman first, climber second. Otherwise you will go on being hurt or mediocre, neither of which are good enough for me.

BTW, on the cut, you had a problem because you didn't read the limb right and select the right cut. Without being there I would say that you probably needed a 1/3 or so undercut and a fast top cut meeting it or slightly back towards you 1" or so. Called a snap, jump, or mismatched cut. This cut does not establish a hinge to counter side weight on the limb so only use it if the limb doesn't look like it is heavy to one side and will actually twist when releasing, possibly binding and taking your saw with. If you have some side weight put a short notch, 1/3 limb diameter or so deep, in the underside and meet the apex of it with the top cut. The taller the notch, the farther the limb will pivot down before it releases.

I agree 100%, I need to work for/with someone else.

As far as a clean snap being dependant on the speed of the top cut, to me that doesn't sound safe. What if the saw dies or boggs-down, that means I die? Sounds like relying on the equipment too much. Please educate me there.

 

[reachtreeservi]

Hey Man, I'm not telling you to give up.

Just go about it the right way, when you can.


1000.00 will get you started. Barely.

Consider spending 500 of your 1000 budget on the 1st arbor master climbing course.

They have one at the biltmore estate in April , take the family and make a vacation out of it. Fantastic place !




This trade isn't something you can pick up from a book and the internet.

 

[Nailsbeats]

I agree 100%, I need to work for/with someone else.

As far as a clean snap being dependant on the speed of the top cut, to me that doesn't sound safe. What if the saw dies or boggs-down, that means I die? Sounds like relying on the equipment too much. Please educate me there.

First of all, this game isn't safe, just look at the deaths each year. You automatically assume a lot of risk when you step into a tree, the trick is to mitigate it. Second, you will have to rely on your equipment, thats why guys get really meticulous about their gear. Everything in treework depends on speed and feel, especially cutting. This is where experience comes in.

If you slow down while that cut is loading up with energy getting ready to release, you are asking for the chain to get caught in the fibers and go with the limb or a bad release causing the limb to pivot down farther than desired. On the flip side when using a notch, you need to cut up to a desired hinge width and monitor the piece being cut to feel if you need to cut the piece more or let the hinge work. If you are tied in above the cut with the proper gear you don't die in these situations, if you are on a ladder you will probably take a beating.

 

[Plasmech]

First of all, this game isn't safe, just look at the deaths each year. You automatically assume a lot of risk when you step into a tree, the trick is to mitigate it. Second, you will have to rely on your equipment, thats why guys get really meticulous about their gear. Everything in treework depends on speed and feel, especially cutting. This is where experience comes in.

If you slow down while that cut is loading up with energy getting ready to release, you are asking for the chain to get caught in the fibers and go with the limb or a bad release causing the limb to pivot down farther than desired. On the flip side when using a notch, you need to cut up to a desired hinge width and monitor the piece being cut to feel if you need to cut the piece more or let the hinge work. If you are tied in above the cut with the proper gear you don't die in these situations, if you are on a ladder you will probably take a beating.

What is the number 1 killer in this field? Falls...saws...hit on the head?

 

[pinemartin]

[QUOTE=Nailsbeats; If you are tied in above the cut with the proper gear you don't die in these situations

I know a guy that worked for Trees Inc. that was tied in above the cut and he spent 5 months in a wheelchair when the top he was cutting came down. Just happened to be that he was tied into what he was cutting. Bottom line is anyone can get hurt or worse even with the best gear, if they are uneducated in how things need to be done safely.

 

[ropensaddle]

One of the biggest risk to the beginner is being strangled by a pro.

Mmmmmmmmmmmhmmmmmmmmmm love the strangle
approach almost always gets a result

But really if someones trying and wanting to learn I have the patience of an:angel:

 

[D Mc]

You need to work for somebody part time or something as a groundman if you want to pick this up. Read all you want in books or here on the web, but you need experience. Groundman first, climber second. Otherwise you will go on being hurt or mediocre, neither of which are good enough for me.

BTW, on the cut, you had a problem because you didn't read the limb right and select the right cut. Without being there I would say that you probably needed a 1/3 or so undercut and a fast top cut meeting it or slightly back towards you 1" or so. Called a snap, jump, or mismatched cut. This cut does not establish a hinge to counter side weight on the limb so only use it if the limb doesn't look like it is heavy to one side and will actually twist when releasing, possibly binding and taking your saw with. If you have some side weight put a short notch, 1/3 limb diameter or so deep, in the underside and meet the apex of it with the top cut. The taller the notch, the farther the limb will pivot down before it releases.

First of all, this game isn't safe, just look at the deaths each year. You automatically assume a lot of risk when you step into a tree, the trick is to mitigate it. Second, you will have to rely on your equipment, thats why guys get really meticulous about their gear. Everything in treework depends on speed and feel, especially cutting. This is where experience comes in.

If you slow down while that cut is loading up with energy getting ready to release, you are asking for the chain to get caught in the fibers and go with the limb or a bad release causing the limb to pivot down farther than desired. On the flip side when using a notch, you need to cut up to a desired hinge width and monitor the piece being cut to feel if you need to cut the piece more or let the hinge work. If you are tied in above the cut with the proper gear you don't die in these situations, if you are on a ladder you will probably take a beating.

Nails, those were two very well worded and helpful posts.

Plasmech, the moral here is to finish what you start. When you start a cut you will need to know times to back off or times to keep your finger on the gas. This does not mean forcing the cut but there are times, as you found out, when hesitation can be quite disastrous.

If you are going to get into tree work, do as has been suggested and get help with your training. Many guys have successfully taught themselves, many of those who have tried this approach have not fared so well. There are very few stand alone answers in tree work. So much of it is based on "feel" that balances out the overall situation.

I would suggest the approach of finding a mentor. This might require working as a groundman for awhile.

Dave

 

[Nailsbeats]

What is the number 1 killer in this field? Falls...saws...hit on the head?

In short: gravity, it is always constant. Seems to me a lot of people get crushed by limbs, cut what they are tied to, or cut there climbing rope. Plenty of guys get cut severly too.