My customer has a sycamore tree which is approx. 24" in diameter, which means it has some growing to do. The tree has a bed of juniper around the base enclosed by landscape timbers, which the customer wants to replace with decorative concrete curbing. There is already on large root protruding above ground, which will crack the concrete as it grows. We want to know whether we can 'shave' down this root at the point where the curbing would cross it without damaging the tree. At this point we would only have to take it down half to three quarters of an inch. The root is about three inches in diameter.
'shaving' tree roots
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Treeman14
Addicted to ArboristSite
What are you hoping to accomplish by shaving down this root? It will still grow and crack the curbing. In fact, the callous growth from the shaving will grow faster and larger than if nothing was done. Why not try moving the curbing further from the tree?
BTW, I find the term "decorative concrete" rather contradictory, an oxymoron if you will, akin to jumbo shrimp or military intelligence.
BTW, I find the term "decorative concrete" rather contradictory, an oxymoron if you will, akin to jumbo shrimp or military intelligence.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
Not only will woundwood grow, but you will open the roots to decay. If it is close to the tree you risk causing early basal rot. basal deacy and root loss can also lead to hig risk of failure.
In trenchig around a tree, the current rule of thimb is dbh*3 is a minimum distance, and d*5 is the nominal distance.
the bed of junipers, is this a raised bed that covers the basal flair? bottom land trees like sycamore are more tolerant to this, but there are increased risks of decay and girdling root with these constructions.
How far away from the base is the wall? would it be possible to do air excavation to undermine the surface root and burry it deeper?
The there is the question as to why the root is at the surface;
In trenchig around a tree, the current rule of thimb is dbh*3 is a minimum distance, and d*5 is the nominal distance.
the bed of junipers, is this a raised bed that covers the basal flair? bottom land trees like sycamore are more tolerant to this, but there are increased risks of decay and girdling root with these constructions.
How far away from the base is the wall? would it be possible to do air excavation to undermine the surface root and burry it deeper?
The there is the question as to why the root is at the surface;
- genetic due to species?
- compact soil or rocky subsoil?
- chronic short term surface irrigation, ie lawn sprinklers.
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Some trees natural have surface roots, others will only have them when the microenvironment provides the best growing area in the firs few inches of soil.
treeclimber165
Member A.K.A Skwerl
Yeah, what JPS said
I may not always be able to decypher his spelling, but I like the way he thinks when it comes to trees.
This tree owner sounds like a 'tree hater' rather than a tree lover. Raising the soil around the tree, planting lots of aggressively competing plants in the tree's primary root zone, boxing it off to contain it, cutting roots for decoration rather than finding out WHY the roots are forced there in the first place.
Next year the owner will want the tree topped 'Because it's getting too tall'.
I may not always be able to decypher his spelling, but I like the way he thinks when it comes to trees.
This tree owner sounds like a 'tree hater' rather than a tree lover. Raising the soil around the tree, planting lots of aggressively competing plants in the tree's primary root zone, boxing it off to contain it, cutting roots for decoration rather than finding out WHY the roots are forced there in the first place.
Next year the owner will want the tree topped 'Because it's getting too tall'.
Owww, Brian. It's like this: Homeowner was given sycamore tree by son who now lived in another state; the tree has done well and provides nice shade. But it is a sycamore, which produces large leaves that end up all over the neighborhood, protruding roots, and almost offers too much shade now for the green and gold junipers which homeowner planted around the tree when it was small. So I believe homeowner to be attached to the tree out of duty to his son. He could probably even be convinced to take that tree out and replace it with a more suitable speciman, sans juniper. But given the spread of roots on a tree the size of a sycamore, I don't think the roots of those little junipers are that much competition.
Eric E.
ArboristSite Operative
I would evaluate other options for a bed edge. The concrete will most likely be broken in the future if it is placed near the trunk. It will be broken soon if it is placed so close that the root needs to be cut. Why not create a mulched bed extending past all the exposed roots? Is there a reason that a "hard" edge is needed? I would look for a longer term solution.
Jay Banks
ArboristSite Operative
I assume Kelly you spoke to the owner and advised him of the problems discussed sofar.
My two cents--If you must accomidate the hardscape edge at a prescribed distance from the tree why not slope the edge to ground level 12-18 inches before and after the exposed root. And maybe carry that theme around the tree, sort of like dashed line.
Then come back and mulch the open areas to soften the breaks.
My two cents--If you must accomidate the hardscape edge at a prescribed distance from the tree why not slope the edge to ground level 12-18 inches before and after the exposed root. And maybe carry that theme around the tree, sort of like dashed line.
Then come back and mulch the open areas to soften the breaks.
Shaving roots creates more problems
Everyone else has hit many of the reasons why not but you need to convince the homeowner.
Temporary fixes allow the problem to get worse while you ignore it for a while. Explain that bedding and concrete edging hurt the tree as well as the work into bedding and edging.
How about moving the bed outward and using decorative brick?
That will reduce the soil level over the roots and increase the nice appearance of the plantings with less stress on the tree and allow for movement as the roots grow. Plant moss or use peat between brick for appearance and expansion. Some use sand
Everyone else has hit many of the reasons why not but you need to convince the homeowner.
Temporary fixes allow the problem to get worse while you ignore it for a while. Explain that bedding and concrete edging hurt the tree as well as the work into bedding and edging.
How about moving the bed outward and using decorative brick?
That will reduce the soil level over the roots and increase the nice appearance of the plantings with less stress on the tree and allow for movement as the roots grow. Plant moss or use peat between brick for appearance and expansion. Some use sand
M.D. Vaden
vadenphotography.com
TREES & CURBS
Why does it seem that tree advice often goes 95% in favor of "trees rights", and so little in favor of people being able to enjoy having fun in their yard?
Saving a puny 3" root may be better for a tree than cutting the puny root, but doesn't the practice of saving every root on trees start to compare to paying rising taxes?
If a tree grows for decades, or centuries, are we to conclude that we must preserve, accomodate, and build around every 3" root?
So far, I have not said what should be done. I've only listed 3 questions.
Mario Vaden
Designer / Arborist
M.D. Vaden Trees & Landscapes
Beaverton, Oregon
Why does it seem that tree advice often goes 95% in favor of "trees rights", and so little in favor of people being able to enjoy having fun in their yard?
Saving a puny 3" root may be better for a tree than cutting the puny root, but doesn't the practice of saving every root on trees start to compare to paying rising taxes?
If a tree grows for decades, or centuries, are we to conclude that we must preserve, accomodate, and build around every 3" root?
So far, I have not said what should be done. I've only listed 3 questions.
Mario Vaden
Designer / Arborist
M.D. Vaden Trees & Landscapes
Beaverton, Oregon
Newfie
Addicted to ArboristSite
Those pesky trees...
"But it is a sycamore, which produces large leaves that end up all over the neighborhood"
When are trees gonna stop doing annoying stuff like that? I hate raking my lawn, I think I'll just whack down all the trees and be done with the problem.
"But it is a sycamore, which produces large leaves that end up all over the neighborhood"
When are trees gonna stop doing annoying stuff like that? I hate raking my lawn, I think I'll just whack down all the trees and be done with the problem.
Incognito
From planet Z8B on the quasar to the left of Xeenon4.
Zone 8b??
If you help yer peeps and homies here by letting them know your locale, you may get more specialized info.
Platanus spp. is probably one of the most "global" trees. I have seen varieties in Mexico, China, India, Europe, and yes, Texas. Varieties differ greatly and thus their value as a landscape tree.
Locale would help. If it were anything other than the Mexican variety in Austin, I would suggest removal because if you don't take it out, hypoxylon or anthracnose will.
I think it is not a tree hater/lover issue. A lot of us get frustrated about the so called "tree problems" that are not tree problems. Why is the tree always too close to the pavement and never the pavement too close to the tree. Why is the tree expected to move??
Changing the border may be a better invest ment and way to avoid future problems instead of constanly root trimming.
My .02 - good luck
From planet Z8B on the quasar to the left of Xeenon4.
Zone 8b??
If you help yer peeps and homies here by letting them know your locale, you may get more specialized info.
Platanus spp. is probably one of the most "global" trees. I have seen varieties in Mexico, China, India, Europe, and yes, Texas. Varieties differ greatly and thus their value as a landscape tree.
Locale would help. If it were anything other than the Mexican variety in Austin, I would suggest removal because if you don't take it out, hypoxylon or anthracnose will.
I think it is not a tree hater/lover issue. A lot of us get frustrated about the so called "tree problems" that are not tree problems. Why is the tree always too close to the pavement and never the pavement too close to the tree. Why is the tree expected to move??
Changing the border may be a better invest ment and way to avoid future problems instead of constanly root trimming.
My .02 - good luck
Aren't we all in this to kill trees?? Cool gadgets, powerful saws, big trucks, big chippers, mass destruction!!! It just doesn't get any bettter!
Give me 2hrs with that tree and then bring in a grinder for the root!
Greg
Give me 2hrs with that tree and then bring in a grinder for the root!
Greg
For me, urban forest mgmt. Which means hauling out all the trash that belongs in the forest, not in the city. Mostly things that belong in a forest in China or Az. Another good many that belong in a reprarian zone. Some short term, some long term. I live by the theory that a tree should be a legacy for a future generation and not a liability for retirement or the next owner. Done right, proper urban forest mgmt techniques increase property values. To do this requires a "redistribution of the growth potential". That sounds so much nicer than removal. Then you kill.
Personally, I could care less about spending my evenings and weekends working and tweaking on saws. Everyone has their own reasons I suppose.
Personally, I could care less about spending my evenings and weekends working and tweaking on saws. Everyone has their own reasons I suppose.
In all the years of posting at all the sites ever devised, the issues of tree roots and pavements has never been put so simply, eloquently, and meaningful in so few words.
"Why is the tree always too close to the pavement and never the pavement too close to the tree. Why is the tree expected to move??"
Thank you TreeTex!
"Why is the tree always too close to the pavement and never the pavement too close to the tree. Why is the tree expected to move??"
Thank you TreeTex!
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
Re: TREES & CURBS
Because we are tree people, why do landscrapers want to cut things off every time the look at a tree.
Hyperboly intended.
how close is it to the trunk? You only get one trunk on a tree. Basal decay can be a problem sometimes.
Because we are tree people, why do landscrapers want to cut things off every time the look at a tree.
Hyperboly intended.
how close is it to the trunk? You only get one trunk on a tree. Basal decay can be a problem sometimes.
M.D. Vaden
vadenphotography.com
SHAVING ROOTS
This topic reminds me of neighbors about 6 houses from us.
They acquired some mature trees when they bought the house.
About 4 years ago, an arborist told them not to cut a root on their Deodar Cedar. The root was starting to crack the house foundation.
Its about a 70' tree with a 35' spread, and a trunk DBH of about 36 to 40 inches.
The root was about 8 to 9 inches in diameter, and the foundation was about 12 to 15 feet away from the tree trunk.
These people spent over $5000 to modify the foundation to that corner of their single level home.
I'm curious as to what they will do as the roots continue to spread to the next part of their foundation.
An interesting aspect is, in our town, 1/2 of the people will get rid of a big tree if it becomes too expensive to maintain. It will not be long before that house and tree are sold to someone else.
By the way, we live in an area that is developing fast. Builders are not careful about what they do to soil. Its very wet in Beaverton for many months, so soil compaction is easily attained by builders.
The lots are getting smaller because of the growth boundary set up for development. People are quite impatient, so they want a quick fill - overplanting. Landscapers and Designers (many) want to impress people with their look-excellent-right-away landscaping - overplanting.
Arborists in this area are supportive of maintaining the excessive number of trees. And then the other pretend arborists (Jackie Chans with spikes and ignorance) butcher routinely.
This town is very challenging. Some of the older, or wealthier neighborhoods provide the best environments for pruning and tree care around Portland and the suburbs. Bigger lots, more space for the trees.
Mario Vaden
Designer / Arborist
M.D. Vaden Trees & Landscapes
Beaverton, Oregon
This topic reminds me of neighbors about 6 houses from us.
They acquired some mature trees when they bought the house.
About 4 years ago, an arborist told them not to cut a root on their Deodar Cedar. The root was starting to crack the house foundation.
Its about a 70' tree with a 35' spread, and a trunk DBH of about 36 to 40 inches.
The root was about 8 to 9 inches in diameter, and the foundation was about 12 to 15 feet away from the tree trunk.
These people spent over $5000 to modify the foundation to that corner of their single level home.
I'm curious as to what they will do as the roots continue to spread to the next part of their foundation.
An interesting aspect is, in our town, 1/2 of the people will get rid of a big tree if it becomes too expensive to maintain. It will not be long before that house and tree are sold to someone else.
By the way, we live in an area that is developing fast. Builders are not careful about what they do to soil. Its very wet in Beaverton for many months, so soil compaction is easily attained by builders.
The lots are getting smaller because of the growth boundary set up for development. People are quite impatient, so they want a quick fill - overplanting. Landscapers and Designers (many) want to impress people with their look-excellent-right-away landscaping - overplanting.
Arborists in this area are supportive of maintaining the excessive number of trees. And then the other pretend arborists (Jackie Chans with spikes and ignorance) butcher routinely.
This town is very challenging. Some of the older, or wealthier neighborhoods provide the best environments for pruning and tree care around Portland and the suburbs. Bigger lots, more space for the trees.
Mario Vaden
Designer / Arborist
M.D. Vaden Trees & Landscapes
Beaverton, Oregon
treeclimber165
Member A.K.A Skwerl
Vaden,
You are basing your assumptions on false thoughts. Roots do NOT crack foundations. Crappy construction and soil expansion/contraction cause foundation cracks. Check out the latest threads over at ISA (within the last day or so). There is a thread on that very topic.
You are basing your assumptions on false thoughts. Roots do NOT crack foundations. Crappy construction and soil expansion/contraction cause foundation cracks. Check out the latest threads over at ISA (within the last day or so). There is a thread on that very topic.
M.D. Vaden
vadenphotography.com
Experience and reality teach bigger lessons than the ISA - since the ISA is not here.
Have you heard the term "superceded?"
I have watched a Lombardy Poplar lift a foundation for 15 years at one house (one of many with similar problems). Planted 2' from the living room.
Want to guess where the crack is? Right dead center over the large root going under the foundation.
Here's an example - if my pickup gets demolished by a big semi truck, did that mean my pickup was not built well.
Even a child can figure out that well built vehicles are designed for a purpose.
The house of my earlier post was well built. And built to live in. Not built for enormous roots.
You noticed my indication of a single story dwelling. That was not included by accident.
Trees do heave, break and crack well built foundations and concrete in this area. That's a fact.
The City of Tualatin, Oregon could have made their sidewalks 8" with rebar instead of 4" or 5". If they did, the Sweet Gum trees in the little 4 foot planter strips with compacted soil would still have heaved the sidewalks.
All this shows that you probably misread my post, and that the ISA ideas do not apply to 100% of situations.
We have seen what you referred to about soil and cracks. That is an occurance here. It is an occurance that can be added to the other occurances where trees heave things.
Are you unaware of how fast trees grow in Oregon?
We don't ship them east for nothing.
This is one reason that the ISA is only one of my centers of reference.
If I threw a hammer through a window, and the International Glass Association said that hammers don't crack windows, I'd ignore them on that particular point.
The key is not to build windows that withstand hammers, but not to put hammers through windows.
Our foundations don't need a lot of improvement here. Oregonians need to quit putting huge trees near buildings.
Oregonians cannot afford a foundation building code requiring foundations that can withstand Giant Sequoias and Lombardy Poplars growing anywhere on the building perimeter.
Because that seems to be where your logic was headed in light of what I posted earlier, and what you responded.
There is no need to make foundations live up to "trees rights."
Mario Vaden
Designer / Arborist
M.D. Vaden Trees & Landscapes
Beaverton, Oregon
PS - I hope this did not post twice - I still have not figured out which keys I hit now and then that delete my messages.
Have you heard the term "superceded?"
I have watched a Lombardy Poplar lift a foundation for 15 years at one house (one of many with similar problems). Planted 2' from the living room.
Want to guess where the crack is? Right dead center over the large root going under the foundation.
Here's an example - if my pickup gets demolished by a big semi truck, did that mean my pickup was not built well.
Even a child can figure out that well built vehicles are designed for a purpose.
The house of my earlier post was well built. And built to live in. Not built for enormous roots.
You noticed my indication of a single story dwelling. That was not included by accident.
Trees do heave, break and crack well built foundations and concrete in this area. That's a fact.
The City of Tualatin, Oregon could have made their sidewalks 8" with rebar instead of 4" or 5". If they did, the Sweet Gum trees in the little 4 foot planter strips with compacted soil would still have heaved the sidewalks.
All this shows that you probably misread my post, and that the ISA ideas do not apply to 100% of situations.
We have seen what you referred to about soil and cracks. That is an occurance here. It is an occurance that can be added to the other occurances where trees heave things.
Are you unaware of how fast trees grow in Oregon?
We don't ship them east for nothing.
This is one reason that the ISA is only one of my centers of reference.
If I threw a hammer through a window, and the International Glass Association said that hammers don't crack windows, I'd ignore them on that particular point.
The key is not to build windows that withstand hammers, but not to put hammers through windows.
Our foundations don't need a lot of improvement here. Oregonians need to quit putting huge trees near buildings.
Oregonians cannot afford a foundation building code requiring foundations that can withstand Giant Sequoias and Lombardy Poplars growing anywhere on the building perimeter.
Because that seems to be where your logic was headed in light of what I posted earlier, and what you responded.
There is no need to make foundations live up to "trees rights."
Mario Vaden
Designer / Arborist
M.D. Vaden Trees & Landscapes
Beaverton, Oregon
PS - I hope this did not post twice - I still have not figured out which keys I hit now and then that delete my messages.
treeclimber165
Member A.K.A Skwerl
I was not referring to ISA policy. I was referring to the forum over there and posts made by members. Since you are convinced, I will not argue the point here. But I do not believe you or the tangents where you took this discussion. You are STILL assuming that roots CAUSE cracks.
How can we educate the public when the so-called 'experts' don't understand trees?
How can we educate the public when the so-called 'experts' don't understand trees?
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
Theee is a difference between a tree that grows 15 ft from a house and 2 ft form a house, butress roots and fibrouse roots grow differently.
Another problem is that roots will only grow where there is O2 and H2O, if the slab was built properly then it would not allow good root growth under it. I would like to see the construction that a poplar root was able to heave and crack.
Root growth is the prosess of adding cells on tothe existing layers, this means that the tree must form the cell then pump fluid and carbs in to build the woody structure.
JOA had a few article studying root development under sidewalks, the majority of them found were under cracks. This is because of the O2 requirment for growth. This implies that the slab was cracked to begin with and the root was following the plume of areated soil.
Roots do not cause cracks in hardscape but they will take advantage and exacerbate existing problems. Sewer lines are prime examples, why else would a root grow down 18 feet and infiltrate a lien other then it is cracked, and leaking aerated, nutrient rich water.
You are taking an observation and atributing a cause on assumptions. "There is a crack, a root is under it. I've seen cracks with roots under them before so roots must cause cracks."
This syllogistic logic is pooly grounded, lacking in fine observation. Nowhere do you say WHY the roots are there, as if root grow everywhere.
There is now How or WHY to your arguments, just some weak anologoies.
Here are my questions to you
Another problem is that roots will only grow where there is O2 and H2O, if the slab was built properly then it would not allow good root growth under it. I would like to see the construction that a poplar root was able to heave and crack.
Root growth is the prosess of adding cells on tothe existing layers, this means that the tree must form the cell then pump fluid and carbs in to build the woody structure.
JOA had a few article studying root development under sidewalks, the majority of them found were under cracks. This is because of the O2 requirment for growth. This implies that the slab was cracked to begin with and the root was following the plume of areated soil.
Roots do not cause cracks in hardscape but they will take advantage and exacerbate existing problems. Sewer lines are prime examples, why else would a root grow down 18 feet and infiltrate a lien other then it is cracked, and leaking aerated, nutrient rich water.
You are taking an observation and atributing a cause on assumptions. "There is a crack, a root is under it. I've seen cracks with roots under them before so roots must cause cracks."
This syllogistic logic is pooly grounded, lacking in fine observation. Nowhere do you say WHY the roots are there, as if root grow everywhere.
There is now How or WHY to your arguments, just some weak anologoies.
Here are my questions to you
- Why did the root grow there.
- how was it able to lift a slab of concrete?
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I will say that if a root is associated with a crack, chicken and egg aside, then it should be severed properly. If a Populus sp. is growing 2 ft from a hous, it is best to remove it.
If a tree is 15 ft from a structure then root pruning should not be the first action taken!
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