'shaving' tree roots

[Eric E.]

WOW!!! Tree roots growing under foundations! I can't understand why a root would want to go there...little moisture or air. Better get the word out to all the guys that have done and are currently doing research on this topic, they better get to Oregon.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

You folks get too complicated.

That's a difficulty several arborists attempt on society.

Need to stay more down to earth.

Like I indicated, our region can't afford the construction practices that would prevent roots from going under buildings.

They build too fast. And the codes are sufficient for health, safety and welfare or the public.

Everything could be better, but the public here says "no more". There is a limit to how perfect a society they can afford.

Like making sure no yard slopes down the the house. Or making sure every house has perfect drainage.

Its easier here to fix the problem by locating trees away from where they can cause damage, than do design the house and yard to prevent and resist the damage.

The economy here has set itself where the expenses have hit the ceiling.

Oh, was that sarcasm, Eric?

8 months of rainy weather here! North, in Washington, the Olympic Mtn. area is a rain forest (that is literal).

I don't think I said all our homes have slabs. Didn't I say foundation.

We also have literal highways of mole tunnels here that can move water for miles, to any unknown area.

Are some of you beginning to grasp a glimpse of what you may possibly have no local experience with?

Hmmm, how does water get under a house?? Hmmm?

Could it be from 8 blocks away in an unknown rodent tunnel during dousing rains on and off for 7 to 8 months?

Shows that 50 states worth of ideas may not fit a part of a single state.

Mario Vaden
Beaverton, Oregon

Happy Thanksgiving all.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

TIME TO READ

Hey,

Did you guys think I meant that we have regular houses in Oregon?

We live in Teepees here. The cracks in the foundations I was referring to are the cracks in the hides used on the floor.

Our pruning tools are Obsidian wedged in the end of a stick.

I wish had been more clear.

At least with our bows and arrows, we can get our climbing lines up into the trees.

We tried fastening deer antlers to our moccassins for climbing spikes, but that did not work as well as planned.

MR. SANBORN - you would not really want to see that slab. If you came to Beaverton, you would blow beets at some of the soil damage here.

That particular slab was a 1970s home. Fortunately, more and more newer homes are having slabs only in the garage.

Was it Eric that said why would roots go under a slab - no air, no moisture? Well, if they are pouring slabs here whenever they can get away with it, and the soil is wet most of the year here, why search for the answer? Of course there is moisture under slabs here.

Oh, and the soil ruined so bad on our new construction! - if you think that roots don't go under a slab due to lack of air, then you would really wonder why the roots would not jump out of our soil.

I did a landscape installation 2 months ago. The soil was so hard, that the pick barely penetrated. No chance for a rototiller. And with 4' and 5' side yards - gate / fence already in, there is no way to get equipment in with enough power to break the surface.

And yes, people still want trees in a place like that, and they do not have the funds to correct the soil damage.

Now the yard next door, was easy to dig in.

It depends on if the various subcontractors were working on a very rainy week. They use 4 wheel hi-lifts to move roofing, sheetrock and other stuff.

Excess gravel from the concrete work gets spread around in the soil. Digging for shrub planting opens up "horizons" of gravel layers.

This is one reason we have boosted our advertising in some surrounding areas, to increase the proportion of our work at larger, older home lots, and some of the semi-rural areas.

John, we had a Flowering Cherry in our yard (3 actually) with a 12" DBH trunk. It had a surface root 8" to 9" in diameter - like a horizontal trunk. We cut in in sections with a chainsaw, and a pick just popped the little firewood piece out. Hardly any secondary roots from it.

We took those out as soon as we acquired the house since they were thrashed with sunburn damage. But they are still typical of many, many Flowering Cherry in this area. Huge surface roots like trunks.

Across from our kids school, the Sweet Gums have lifted and heaved the asphalt so much in only 25 years, that its becoming like a miniature roller coaster to about 10' from the curb where cars would park.

Mario Vaden
Beaverton, Oregon

 

[kkelley]

That is not fair, Mike. Being 'in the business' as I am I encourage my customers to let me mulch their leaves so the value of this resource stays on their property, not in a garbage dump. But
sycamore leaves, as I pointed out, are not easily mowed over and thus have to be raked and hauled off. We had a huge sycamore tree in our back yard when I was a kid and I was forever up in the top of it. Raking the leaves was my job and I hated raking those leaves with a passion, but I was the one who cried when my Dad cut the tree down after I left for college. I understand the passion arborists have for trees but I do believe you are being a tad bit unfair and judgemental if you label me or my customer as a 'tree hater' because I posted a question to the experts rather than just going ahead and potentially damaging the tree.
Mario, thank you for posing some questions to think about. To save every root, or every tree, limits our ability to renovate existing landscapes. It absolutely kills me to see forests being clear cut in order to build new houses but if I get bent about it I would go through life as an unhappy person, wouldn't I??
Peace, guys.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Greetings Kkelly.

It struck me as funny last night - several of us wandered so far from your original question. But it was still entertaining.

The tree in question, if its the same as here - ours have a kind of "dust" or residue that leaves my nostrils or sinuses feeling agitated for a couple of days.

Is that true there also?

The only other tree that presents a health difficulty here for care are some Hawthorn - for pruning. After a sharp projection almost went into my ear, I now wear foam earplugs when pruning them, as well as eye protection.

What we call by common name Sycamore, and the Hawthorn, are my least favorite to maintain.

The Sycamore have a beautiful form though, and Hawthorn are great for people that want to draw birds in.

Mario Vaden
Beaverton, Oregon

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Soil compaction is a propblem on any construction sight. Studies have shown that a small pickup truck going over the same area 5 times will render around a 80% loss of porosity in the soil. PNW is not special there.

Many landscrapers install woody plandt in this type of soil, I veiw it as less then ethical. How long of a replacement policy do they have? PTHHHTTT. Tree dies tree four years down the road, it aint their problem.

OK I see you have your opinion and refuse to listen to anyone else on it, cut the root and ????e the tree and the effects it will have 10-20 years down the road.

I realize not all tree in a landscape will last 100 years, but unless the client has a plan for removal, I feel the practitioners should operate with the plants usefull life in mind.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Your last paragraph seems accurate to what I have indicated.

To paraphrase - Landscape professionals should provide plant care that falls within the expected and projected lifespan of their trees / or shrubs.

If a homeowner wants the trees to last for 20 years, we try to meet or exeed it.

If they want 100 years, we try to meet or exceed that.

As for ethics (which you included).

Houses with good soil are easy to deal with. Houses with bad soil require an expert.

At 80% of the new homes with bad soil, here, the homeowners discover they have ruined soil after they bought the house.

The houses are being built toward the upper limits here, so after the house purchase, most of the homeowners barely have enough money to pay regular landscaping.

SO THIS IS A FREQUENT CASE - The soil is ruined, the builders ruined it, the homeowner has no funds for equipment to repair the damage, AND it is innevitable that there will be a landscape going in.

In that case, what may be unethical is what the builder did.

The homeowner has no knowledge.

If a landscaper tried to live up to you ethical code, then bare dirt and surface erosion is almost the only other option if the homeowner can't afford to correct the deeply damaged soil.

So the most ethical person, is the highly trained landscaper, that provides at least a 20 year landscape that will need periodic replacements.

The main source of poor ethics will be either the builder that ruined the soil, or whoever prodded the builder toward that direction of practice.

A equally serious ethic violation, are arborists, or landscape technicians that accuse landscape and tree professionals of trying to give people a solution for a product (soil) defect they are stuck with.

Mario Vaden
Beaverton, Oregon

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I deal with soil compaction more and more lately. Not because it is becoming more prevolent, but because people are listening more.

The air tools on the market are the perfect solution for what you are talking about. My AirKnife and a 175 cfm compressor can fre up soil anywhere. Then I can amend it with a sandy loam (we have limey clays here for the most part) to enrich it organicly and help keep the trenches I make from compactig right away. Then add in some native worms and other macro biota that naturaly aerate, mulch as far as possible and the client has a good area for the trees to grow and a place to get bait to go fisshin with.

IMO it is a half-ast job to plug a tree into a rock hard soil where it has no hoep of establishing itself. I see it quite frequently around here.

Goes right along with too deep, blass still wraped and tied and all those other things we know should not be done.

So what do you do if a tree you planted in compacted soil dies 3 years down the road, and you find that it's roos never left the planting pit?

 

[M.D. Vaden]

The answer to the last question is replace them.

People tend to plant high here because of the situation.

How much did your machine cost?

Or, another way to look at it would be:

How much would you estimate it will cost per 100 square feet, and how long will 100 square feet take to do.

As I mentioned, many people are tapped out here on just the plants and labor to put them in.

But I always enjoy adding tools to the arsenal for those that can afford the improvement.

Its interesting how the local government here requires builders to put up erosion/silt fences, but don't require builders to take action that prevents soil damage.

Thanks for the imput,

I'll check back,

Mario Vaden
Beaverton, Oregon

 

[treeclimber165]

Here's a thread on air spade use, from the last two weeks.
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5566
There are several other threads on air spades, describing how to build one, use one, costs, etc.
We discuss things like this over on the Commercial Tree Care forum, and leave this forum for homeowners to ask questions about their trees.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

MOVING AIR SPADE TOPIC

T...165 mentioned topics like this in the pro forum.

So, in light of how this topic is developing, I put a new thread on the commercial forum. and am bailing out of this forum for this subject.

See:

Air knife? / Auger? / Casualties? / Cost?

Mario Vaden

 

[Anthos]

aren't we all in this to kill trees?? Cool gadgets, powerful saws, big trucks, big chippers, mass destruction!!! It just doesn't get any bettter!
Greg

best quote ive ever seen on arboristsite.com