shear type processors ???

[sgtm8411]

Hello all.. This is my first post and so I appologize if I bring up a subject that has been covered a thousand times in the past. I am an active duty marine and am about to retire. I want to start a firewood business and have been spending hours researching various processors. There is a Chomper for sale locally. It is from the early 90's. The guy said it was the biggest diesel model they made at the time. He said it was a 60,000.00 machine and he would sell it for 26,000 (with a conveyer). I havent looked at the machine yet but I have seen some negative reviews posted on the chomper. I've heard it gets the shear blade stuck in frozen/dried wood and struggles through wood with knots but I believe that chomper was the small 18hp model not the monster diesel. This new business will be a very risky thing for me as I have a limited budget and really need to get this right the first time. Your input would be invaluable to me. Should I stray away from the shear type processors??? I've heard if I get a chain saw type processor that I should be prepared to replace the chain an average of twice per day at roughly $22 each that is a $44/day overhead. Is this accurate?? Thank you in advance for your time.
-Mike (upstate NY)

 

[Crofter]

Could that have meant change out twice a day to a sharp chain! that would be reasonable and wouldnt mean totalling two new chains a day. I have a fair bit of experience repairing the topping shears on delimbers and the knives and cylinders do need a fair bit of maintenance and they are only cutting up to about 6 inches or so. There is a lot more force to a shearing operation than sawing. Not much help here.

 

[avalancher]

Not to change the subject, but if a budget is a consideration I think I would opt to start out with a good hydralic type splitter and try that for a year.Give yourself a chance to see if you are really going to like the firewood business, and gives you a chance to build up your business without risking a lot of capital.A good splitter is going to cost you a whole lot less, and is far easier to sell if you decide to bag the whole operation.Used splitters dont really lose much of their resale value if you do the maintenence, and you may find hurdles that you didnt consider when starting out.Price of firewood, availability of wood to sell, etc. I hate to see you risk a bunch of capital right out of the gate.
Just my two cents worth.

 

[nickblaze466]

i'm not familiar with chomper processors, have never seen one in real life, and life in northwest ohio.

the price he gave you may have been in paseos, the highest price they have right now for the 80hp diesel is almost 40k, not 60. thats got a couple years on it as well, i'd reconsider that price.

shear type processing seems like a bad idea if you're processing hardwood. it does mention it will handle any species, up to 16'' in diameter. thats not a very big log. i'd say 9/10ths of the logs i get are bigger than that.

other things like the winch having 2300lbs of single pull line strength - that is not much at all considering what you're trying to move. i suppose you could double it up, but that sounds to me like a pain.

if you're going into this stuff as primary income, i'd look elsewhere. there are a lot of really nice processors that will handle a lot more wood.

as far as the chain, all you need is a sharpener and you'll get a lot more use out of a chain that that. keep searching, you'll find more i'm sure you'll like better.

 

[howellhandmade]

Not to change the subject, but if a budget is a consideration I think I would opt to start out with a good hydralic type splitter and try that for a year.Give yourself a chance to see if you are really going to like the firewood business, and gives you a chance to build up your business without risking a lot of capital.A good splitter is going to cost you a whole lot less, and is far easier to sell if you decide to bag the whole operation.Used splitters dont really lose much of their resale value if you do the maintenence, and you may find hurdles that you didnt consider when starting out.Price of firewood, availability of wood to sell, etc. I hate to see you risk a bunch of capital right out of the gate.
Just my two cents worth.

I think that is excellent advice. I've seen plenty of businesses died a'bornin' because the owners sunk their savings into machines and facilities and didn't have enough money to operate. Starting small, keeping everything in the black, and improving equipment as sales grow would help you sleep better.

Jack

 

[Tree Student]

I run a firewood business in North East Texas and have used a chomper super 16 that a buddy purchased new. I have two main issues with the chomper design but I love the theory. #1 the square box that the logs go through can't handle anything but a straight toothpick and you can't truly process 16in wood because it's just too tight if you didn't delimb it close enough. #2 after the log is sheared it tends to roll sideways before it hits the splitter causing you to get really large pieces and really small pieces so they are not easy to handle.

I agree with the consensus above, start with a splitter like a Timberwolf TW-6 with all the options and a large saw similar to the Stihl 660 with an 18" bar and aggressive chain. With this setup you have less than $8K if you add a conveyor and it's very easy to find used TW-5/6's so that means it's easy to sell them also. You don't see very many Chompers for sale on the used market because not many people who make money with firewood use them. Later look at graduating to a full processor and the chainsaw types aren't bad, they dull more chains if your wood is extremely dirty as with any chainsaw. I can cut 6 cords a day with my 066 and TW-6 and dull one chain every two days cutting oak because I keep the chain out of the dirt.

Hope this helps.

 

[sgtm8411]

good advice

Thank you all for your responses. I made a trip up to Hud-son equipment and took a look at their "Badger" and "little brute". The badger is an entry level processor @ $13,900 brand new and the little brute is $21,900. I should have mentioned that my goal (maybe unrealistic) is to not have to break my back here. If I could get a setup where I never touch a log then all the better. (I guess thats why I've overlooked the chainsaw/splitter) The badger may be my best bet here. There are some videos of it on youtube. I have been pricing used dump trucks (F-550's) for around 20,000 and skidsteers for 6,000-10,000. I figure I could use the skidsteer to load the wood into the dump once its seasoned and never have to break my back loading wood. After all these years in the marines, im done abusing my body (I hope). My budget is between 50,000-75,000 to get this off the ground. Im going to apply for a patriot express loan (a small business loan guaranteed by the VA). I'd like to stay as close to 50,000 as possible. Im sure there are some expenses im forgetting.... conveyer,trailer for wood and skidsteer,chainsaw, etc.. wood here sells for $300 per seasoned cord and $250 unseasoned. It is selling for between $90-100 per cord of logs. That means a profit of roughly $200 per cord and a breakeven point of between 80-100 cords per year for the small business loan. Am I doing my math wrong??? Thanks again all.

 

[Tree Student]

I was assuming that you were using your savings to start this business, that changes my suggestion on what equipment to buy. The Hud-Son equipment is typically underpowered so be careful because by the time you upgrade to the correct amount of horsepower then you are at a higher price and a comparable machine that is better known for higher quality.

I would recommend looking for a used Timberwolf processor, the guys in the Arkansas area seem to love them for working the oaks. Maybe the Timberwolf PRO-MP. But use the search function on this site to look up firewood processors because there have been many guys like you and others have given a vast amount of input from experience. Buying used is much better than buying new most of the time.

Edit:

Cycle time is everything in the firewood business and that's when seconds count so the Hud-Son's standard 10 sec cycle time is horrible compared to most at 6-8sec. Doesn't sound like much until you're counting strokes at the end of the day and you're getting done an hour later than everyone else.

 

[dnf0929]

Where about's in Upstate are you Mike? I'm in East Greenbush.

I considered going the route you discuss but got a little nervous about the financial committment so I ended up going with an MS361, Super Split, my F150 and a strong back. It's hard work but I enjoy the work and the few extra bucks.

Whatever you do best of luck and thanks to you and all Veterans for your service and sacrafice.

 

[tboarder2602]

Just my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.....

Here's my 2 cents..

Quick background info, I know a guy here in CT with a chomper. His full time job is a bridge mechanic/machinist for Amtrack 2nd shift. He owns a land clearing/firewood business on the side and works that during the day as he can.

I heat my house with an indoor wood boiler and burn 6 +/- cords of wood a year, and sell probalby that much again to neighbors/relatives. I process it all with a MS460 and tractor moutned/powered splitter. I load it by hand and have a home made dump trailer which will handle a cord thrown in loose. 12 cords a year is not a lot of volume I know, but its not really a lot of work. I'm in the process now of turning an old hay elevator into a conveyor so I don't have to load the trailer any more. Also my grandfather is 75, has been a stone mason all his life now retired, and still processes about 30 or 40 cords a year all with a saw/splitter and a non-dumping flatbed truck. He burns 8 cords for his house, about 8 cords making maple syrup and sells the rest. Not bad for 75. Don't get me wrong its work and his body is shot but he still does it.

Anyway back to my advice, the guy I know who works for Amtack has a chomper but I don't remember what model, its big though, 100 hp or more J Deere diese. It works well for the most part. Not a ton of maintenance to do and he has not had any major problems, BUT...
the wood has to be really straight or pretty small. He has left some stuff at a jobs for me because he couldn't process it numerous times. The wood was nice white oak, prob 12-14" diameter but was kinda crooked. It was fine for me because I cut it with a saw and split it with tractor/pto powered splitter.


Also, sgtm8411, you speak of using a skid steer or something similar to load the wood into dump truck/trailer etc. There are 2 disadvantages I see with this speaking from personal experience...

1) This is very had to do with the wood in a loose pile. It tends to just spill back out of the bucket. Having a grapple bucket helps because you can clamp down on a load of wood.

2) The wood on the bottom of the pile gets pretty dirty and customers will complain. Also you pick up all the splinters, wood chips, etc which are in the pile too.

I know you are looking at a converyor, if at all possible try to process as much wood directly into the truck/trailer as possible and not have to stock pile a ton. It will help keep the wood clean, and less handling in the long run.

Don't know if that will help at all but just opinions from personal experience. Either way good luck with the business.

 

[wdchuck]

There is a show coming up in West Virginia, its all:

Splitters
bandsaw mills
processors

The equipment will be setup for demonstration, and racing against the clock, so you'll see a crack team of operators putting out 4-7 full cords per hour on the processors. In real life, 1-2 cords per hour is more like it.

A great place for one stop shopping.

If you can swing the trip, do it.


Another suggestion, find a local processor, go watch it run, my request to see one in action turned into a part time night job, it was a learning experience to be sure.

 

[avalancher]

Not trying to discourage you in anyway, but before starting out on your venture, I think a few things need to be considered.
If you are paying for your wood delivered, you are going to be handicapped when it comes to pricing.I dont know how it is in your area, but from what I have seen throughout our area and what is reported on the boards, there is a lot of competition from the weekend warriors that are out of work,buy themselves a poulan from walmart, and call themselves woodcutters.I survived this year for only one reason, I had a long list of regular customers that werent fooled by those "fifty bucks for a truckload" ads, and prefered to stay with me because they knew I sold only good hardwood that had been truly seasoned.
When starting out in this business,it takes awhile for the word to get around,and my concern is that you may sink a boatload of money in this venture just to find out you are going to be competing with the low ballers.

I think also you need to thoroughly check out your wood supply.Generally truck loads are delivered from clearcutting operation and the wood is worthless for timber, they knock it down and sell it off for firewood.With a lot of mills shutdown due to low demand, the loggers are not in the woods, and also may end up being your competition.Several of the companies that I have gotten wood from in the past year are shut down,and the guys turned to their saws for income.They know the sites to get free wood from, and hence may undercut you by a good deal.

Last but not least, if you are concerned about your back holding up and are trying to avoid heavy lifting, then no matter what kind of equipement you have I would avoid a firewood business.I cut the old fashioned way, buck into lengths,haul it home, and split right off the trailer into a pile, but have worked with several local guys that have the big dollar equipement.worked with one guy just to check out his processor, had considered it myself, but decided to spend the cash in other ways.

The firewood business is hard work, no matter what you have to move stuff around with.Heavy equipement will certainly minimize the hard work, but it is still going to be there.

If nothing else, do as someone else suggested and look up a local operation and offer to work a day with them for free,it might give you a little more insite as to what you are planning, and help avoid a costly mistake.Before I invested $1500 in my climbing gear, I went to work with a company to not only learn from them, but help me decide if its what i really wanted to do as a sidline.Best thing I ever did.I worked weekends for minimum wage,learned a lot, and helped me decide.

With that being said, I love cutting wood.It certainly helps when it comes to tired muscles, sore backs, and the never ending feeling sometimes of wondering if its all worth it.But its not for everyone.

Good luck in your venture, no matter what you decide, and do yourself another big favor.Plan on spending as much time as you can here.Most of the guys that hang out here are good people,and are more than able and willing to help out a guy that shares a common interest.

 

[redprospector]

I've got a Chomper Simplex 14 with the auto option.
I've stated before that I thought it was a good little machine, but have never convinced anyone here. So take it for what it's worth.

One thing that I like about the Chomper is that you don't have to have a tractor to load it with. After a person learns to operate one, you can process log's with a little crook in them. When operating at full capabilities 14"/16" the log's do have to be pretty straight, but they do in most machines when you're running at the max size limit.
I went with the 14" machine because firewood isn't my main business, and I figured most anything over that was a saw log. Now that there's no market for saw log's, I kinda wish I'd got something with more capacity.

Any way, my advice is to do a lot of research before going into debt. Most companies have video's on their machines, get that and any literature you can get your hand's on. Make a trip, and go to some shows where some of these machines are being demonstrated. Ask lot's of questions. Then you can make an inteligent decision.

At $26000 for the used one you mentioned, I'd look it over real good and make sure everything is in top shape. Good luck in your endevor's.

Andy

 

[redprospector]

I can cut 6 cords a day with my 066 and TW-6 and dull one chain every two days cutting oak because I keep the chain out of the dirt.

Hope this helps.

Well, I'm sure you are THE MAN, but sorry I've gotta call BS on that one.
You may "cut" 6 cords a day with your 066 and TW-6, but you have plenty of help to get it done.
Anyone who say's they can cut 12 cords of oak in 2 day's and only dulled 1 chain is either spreading manure or dosen't know dull.

I don't mean to throw this thread off kelter, but when someone is asking a legitiment question, and is getting ready to go into debt $50 to 75K, this kind of stuff could cause someone to make the wrong decision based on bad information.

Andy

 

[sgtm8411]

I cant express my appreciation enough for the guidance you all have given me. I am getting a feel for how deep this rabbit hole really goes and im not going to rush into a decision until i've done all my homework. I would love to go to the sawlex in WV but im not going to get the time from work (plus ive got a 3 week old infant who is taking up most of my free time). There is a woodsman type fare in boonville NY in august and the hud-son demo june 13th that I will be attending. I also plan on taking a trip to Vermont to Timberwolf in rutland and Built-Rite in Ludlow to see their stuff before making a decision on a processor. I live in Johnstown NY right now but was looking at opening the business in warrensburg NY. My father has 50 acres in the adirondack mtns (figures its all pine and hemlock with not much prospects for firewood!)

 

[howellhandmade]

SNIPIm going to apply for a patriot express loan (a small business loan guaranteed by the VA). I'd like to stay as close to 50,000 as possible. Im sure there are some expenses im forgetting.... conveyer,trailer for wood and skidsteer,chainsaw, etc.. wood here sells for $300 per seasoned cord and $250 unseasoned. It is selling for between $90-100 per cord of logs. That means a profit of roughly $200 per cord and a breakeven point of between 80-100 cords per year for the small business loan. Am I doing my math wrong??? Thanks again all.

This is why debt is bad. 80-100 cords just to service the debt sounds like a real hamster wheel, like the guys who get locked into a franchise of some sort and can't make ends meet. Suppose you don't find a market for 100 cords starting out? Suppose you've picked the wrong guys as your competition to set price, as has been pointed out, and your real competition, as a newcomer, is the guy with a pickup and a Wild Thing? There will be other costs besides debt service, there always are. You're a soldier so you don't need me telling you what to do, but I don't like the sound of it, especially with a new young'un. If it were me, I'd rather work harder starting out and be able to put food on the table with fewer cords. Then, if the business turned out to be so fantastic that I couldn't keep up using a saw and splitter, I could upgrade equipment. If it didn't work out, maybe I could use the loan idea for a business where $50K would actually provide a competitive advantage, where competitors couldn't easily undercut me with less overhead. But who knows, if you're a sales genius and your real problem is how to get enough wood to keep up with demand, you may be doing exactly the right thing.

Jack

 

[Tree Student]

Well, I'm sure you are THE MAN, but sorry I've gotta call BS on that one.
You may "cut" 6 cords a day with your 066 and TW-6, but you have plenty of help to get it done.
Anyone who say's they can cut 12 cords of oak in 2 day's and only dulled 1 chain is either spreading manure or dosen't know dull.

I don't mean to throw this thread off kelter, but when someone is asking a legitiment question, and is getting ready to go into debt $50 to 75K, this kind of stuff could cause someone to make the wrong decision based on bad information.

Andy

Andy,

The intent of my production speed was meant to simply provide information that I know, not to influence someone to base their business model on an operation over 1500 miles away. I understand your skepticism and had no intention of trying to throw the thread off kelter, however production at the end of the day is what matters as we all know. My crew consist of two other guys, one runs the splitter and one loads the splitter while I'm cutting but it helps that we follow some courteous loggers that leave the good stuff laying out for us and the splitter can be pulled right up to where we cut. We are all younger than 30 but feel like 90 at the end of the day and when tree calls slow down in the winter and the sun sets way to early then we can cut all day and deliver all night. When I'm dropping my own post oaks then I can cut an average of 12 cords before my speed is severely impacted because of the dull chain.

As I try to continually expand my firewood business I am always looking at how everyone around me does it as well as the guys in other states, and we are all tool junkies so I'm continually looking for the next new toy.

I have gained a vast amount of knowledge from this site as well as your post Andy and I look forward to learning more to better myself as well as my business ventures.

James

 

[avalancher]

12 cords of wood before dulling the chain?Man, I swipe my chain after each second fill up, and more if I dull it out on something.Cant imagine 12 face cords without a sharpening,much less 12 full cords.

 

[redprospector]

Andy,

The intent of my production speed was meant to simply provide information that I know, not to influence someone to base their business model on an operation over 1500 miles away. I understand your skepticism and had no intention of trying to throw the thread off kelter, however production at the end of the day is what matters as we all know. My crew consist of two other guys, one runs the splitter and one loads the splitter while I'm cutting but it helps that we follow some courteous loggers that leave the good stuff laying out for us and the splitter can be pulled right up to where we cut. We are all younger than 30 but feel like 90 at the end of the day and when tree calls slow down in the winter and the sun sets way to early then we can cut all day and deliver all night. When I'm dropping my own post oaks then I can cut an average of 12 cords before my speed is severely impacted because of the dull chain.

As I try to continually expand my firewood business I am always looking at how everyone around me does it as well as the guys in other states, and we are all tool junkies so I'm continually looking for the next new toy.

I have gained a vast amount of knowledge from this site as well as your post Andy and I look forward to learning more to better myself as well as my business ventures.

James

James,

I based my previous post on experience. I cut mostly softwood (Pine, Fir, Spruce, etc.). When I was falling timber, if I was in clean wood, I could cut for about 1/2 a day before the chain got "wood dull". It would still cut, but I was loosing production. If the timber was in an area that caught dust from the desert on a windy day, I might have to touch up the chain every tank (40 to 60 minutes with the saw's we ran then). I can't see how any chain could last 12 cords without getting dull just from cutting wood, especially Oak.

As far as putting out 6 cords a day, I'll give you guy's the benefit of a doubt. I will say that if you 3 are consistantly putting out that amount you are either very lucky in the way the wood is left for you, or you guy's are some wampus kitty's. Either way you are some tough sucker's to average 6 cord's a day. Now if you hit that number pretty often, that is definately bragging right's. But the way you stated it, you do it day in, and day out. Just a little hard for me to swallow.

Andy

 

[wdchuck]

Treestudent and Redprospector have hit middle ground in as well two folks could, so cool, so reasonable, with respect and consideration.
If all differences could be resolved so well, the world would be a better place.

Except for Woodbooga and Avalancher, we all need a little comedy now and again.