Spurred so many times its crazy

[clearance]

I was back at where I took the first year of classes to become a utility arborist (C.U.A.). Trees that I had climbed years ago (2000) were still being climbed with spurs and were still alive. I am not advocating the use of spurs to trim trees that are not around powerlines, I accept it is not that good for them.

But this takes the cake, you can see hundreds of gaff marks on these trees (pines, alders, hemlocks, etc.), and they are doing good, or appear to be. Some of the marks are hard to see and are healed right over, others are fresher. So, how come they are not dead, I mean climbed dozens of times, every year, for years? By guys starting out, baby steps, driving thier new spurs in hard 'cause they are scared to fall (remember how that felt), anyways, are the trees in B.C. so much tougher, or is the "spurs kill trees" line a little hysterical?

 

[Nailsbeats]

I live in Wisconsin and spike many of the same trees every year for deer hunting, no evidence that it hurt any of them yet. Spikes are how we always climb trees. My dad has been doing it for over 30 years. He used to run a crew for Asplund in the 70's, thats how they all did it. Sometimes we will use a ladder until we get up higher as to not leave marks on the main trunk.

 

[Bermie]

I was back at where I took the first year of classes to become a utility arborist (C.U.A.). Trees that I had climbed years ago (2000) were still being climbed with spurs and were still alive. I am not advocating the use of spurs to trim trees that are not around powerlines, I accept it is not that good for them.

It's there, in writing...look everyone!!!

Hey clearance just having a go fella... it would be interesting to fell and disect one of those trees and see what was going on inside.
After years of spiking, I'm sure they look real nasty.

 

[beowulf343]

All i'm going to say are trees are alot tougher than most people seem to think. I've seen trees hit by cars and on fire that are still alive. Have a couple trees that the homowner just wanted the stem left at ten feet-nothing left on the tree at all but now a couple years later we got called out to trim them. Heck, i have a friend who runs an apple orchard-his motto when trimming the trees is cut enough till they look dead, then cut that much out again. Some of the storms i've been on, trees had tops broken out and looked devistated-alot of them recovered and are still going strong. If spiking is so bad for trees, why isn't every row tree dead and alot of climbers out of work? Yet they still are alive and still need to be trimmed again every cycle.

 

[Blinky]

I don't think spiking hardly ever kills trees... but it does kill them sometimes. I've seen plenty of healthy trees with gaff scars... and all kinds of other scars to boot.

But then I've seen a beautiful willow oak that was up for removal most likely because a gaff wound opened it up for wood decay fungus... the wound was directly associated with large decayed area. I've seen a recently dead sweetgum with gaff wounds seeping black ooze... it died a the year after a limb was removed by a guy using spikes.

Urban trees are usually stressed to begin with and a batch of gaff wounds can be the entry point for a fungal infection that does a tree in. It's like you say, it just ain't good for them.

 

[ronnyb]

spiking trees

When you get the opportunity to remove a tree that has been spiked in the past, take a cut right through one of the old spike marks. What you will find is an area of decay, most of the time the tree successfully compartmentalizes this decay because it is not a large wound, but think of the cumulative effects of hundreds of wounds that you will inflict on a tree while pruning with spikes on. I also worked line clearance for 7 years before moving on to residential tree care, but we only spiked removals.

 

[Ekka]

anyways, are the trees in B.C. so much tougher, or is the "spurs kill trees" line a little hysterical?

Crikey mate, when will these redneck backwater gator hicks discover aerating trees is good for them just like lawns. :monkey:

Maybe you need to call it some hi-tech arbo garbo name like .....


.... Lenticilification

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

or is the "spurs kill trees" line a little hysterical?

More like hyperbole, there are some very good statements above me. I'll make a feeble attempt to tie them together.

Anecdotal observation by people who just see the outside of what they do leads them to believe that there is no problem. The first gut feeling is that "that cannot be good" but then "it's a tree, it will heal!"

Some have gone so far as to equate proper pruning cuts to gaff scars "there are more pruning cuts in the tree then my gaff marks!" The problem here is that a proper pruning cut is at a natural protection zone. It is also smooth so it has low surface area

A gaff wound is in the trunk and opens up a deep jagged pocket inviting a decay court.

Saying that it will heal over forgets the other 3 "walls" of the CODIT modle. If the wound does close up, you have;

• loss of transport tissue in that area
• loss of storage in the are
• loss of stored energy in the are due to formation of reaction zones described in the CODIT modle
• worst of all, since the wounding is relatively close, they can coalesce over time

As stated above, landscape trees are usually constantly exposed to multiple stresses. It is our job to relieve some of those stresses, and not cause any others.

I accept it is not that good for them

This is the best way to put it, it is not good for the trees, it adds stress and increases the chance of limiting its useful life.

 

[D Mc]

JPS - Good post.

Let us also not forget that most of the trees that Clearance referred to were gymnosperms which seem to show less outward damage to repeated spur work than deciduous trees, particularly ring porous species such as the oak (as mentioned). I have seen LASTING damage on ring porous trees which I would attribute to their sensitivity to vascular colapse when their cell walls are exposed to air. Most of their vascular activity occurs in the outer most growth rings. Whereas gymnosperms have many more growth rings involved in their sap flow.

I just read an interesting article that explains this in Arbor Age (of all places). November 2007 issue "Working within the Tree" Understanding how trunk injections work by Mark Harrell, Ph.D.

This might explain why there is so little outside visible damage to evergreens causing people to say "what's the big deal"? Yet people who have seen the damage caused by spurs on deciduous trees say "Whoa, this shouldn't be allowed".

I firmly agree that landscape trees are under enough stress already, if we don't have to add to it, we shouldn't.


D Mc

 

[youknowwho]

Good Topic

I recently was brought in the bush to try some climbing with an employer whos been teaching guys to climb for years.


I walked up to this suger maple that was covered in spur marks, marks buy the hundreds maybe thounsands top to bottom


Litterally machine gunned with spur marks,

Itook a look up at the top and the leaves, and this tree did not have a single dead leaf or branch ANYWERE.

Even to my suprise, it was extremly healthy and robust,


With all due respect JPS, how could such a thing not influence ones opinion on spurring trees?

 

[youknowwho]

We have to ask our selves if its ok to spurr this tree or not?

It is not truly logical to not spur all (living) trees.

Some people that spur live trees, do not always have to,


But If im not that person, looking at that paticuler tree at that paticuler time, how does one truly know what is best?

Maybe joe blow cant get it done with out spurs. That is not my problem nor is it my true concern.

The thing is , there truly are arborists that love trees but have not yet tried spurless climbing. It some times takes the right oppertunities to learn about these thecniques and some of these guys are just not exposed to them.

 

[TreeBot]

I once had to go take out the broken top of a previously beautiful Pin Oak for an employer who had been spiking it every 3-5 years for several cycles.

It is hard to sort out cause and effect from simple observation of the outside of the tree, but I do know that the spike holes were serving as superhighway tunnels for a thriving colony of carpenter ants. It is too bad, especially considering how easy it is to rope climb a branchy tree like this. All you need is a rope, saddle, buckstrap, and pruning pole. You don't even need a throwbag.

I consider a spike hole to be like a pinprick. Sure, anyone of us could survive hundreds of pin pricks, but that doesn't mean a doctor should subject us to that if it makes his job easier. And even these minor woulds could be the difference between life and death to otherwise vulnerable people.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

With all due respect JPS, how could such a thing not influence ones opinion on spurring trees?

We believe that the CODIT model is valid and except that infection court theory is valid. If you use the scientific method, you see that single anecdotes that conflict with a theory do not alone disprove it, but are what are called "outlying data". These are the datum on a scatter chart that are way out of the norm.

If you usually shoot a tight group, one shot high and right does not make you a bad shot. Anyone who has worked with trees has taken some down that you wonder how it survived. We've seen sapsucker damage that made the tree look like a cribbage board.

Because one tree has the vigor and vitality to tolerate a bad treatment does not allow that treatment to become SOP, or even an occasional method.

We know that repeated wounding will damage and stress a tree, to say it will kill the tree just opens you to ridicule when it does not, and is lazy hyperbole.

IMO gaffing live trees should be a last resort. If it is the only way to perform the job safely (storm work, no decent TIP), if the tree in question is a future removal and gaffing will save the client money, in stand work where it will not damage the stand, but save the client money on the overall project (eg. ROW work, ).

A tree worker may have a good work ethic relating to effort, dependability, response to the client, but if the science is ignored, then that tree worker is not truly and arborist. Many do not care, Mr McPeak for instance.

If an arborist looks at a job and says the only way I can do this is to order a new rope, or hire Glenn Riggs; both options loosing money, I do not think he is a poor practitioner if a few trees are gaffed a year.

Lastly, people who say that think barked trees can be gaffed w/o worry need more study time. Exposed cork cambium can lead to cankering and cambial dieback.

Even if you are not an advocate for the tree, you should operate in a manner that is in the best interest of your client in the long term.

 

[squagg]

I've been working as a arborist now for about 3 years and in that time the company company I ork for (ooo get me ) has only had to spike two living trees, one was a rotten willow pollard the other was a cherry in a woodland and had no braches up to 30 foot. With good rope climbing practice there is more offten than not no need to spike a healthy tree.

Whilst I was at college we spiked a pine in the plantation in the college grounds that had been used for years for spiking lessons. The college just used 2 or three trees for this. These trees were felled during my course and we had a look at the logs. About 2 inches all round into the sap wood you could see all sorts of staining. This is an extream case but it did show to us the damage that could be caused.

 

[mjellison]

spurs

My two cents is that being jabbed by needles doesn't feel too good, let alone getting jabbed hundreds of times. May not kill me but it but it still sucks. I'm sure trees feel the same way about spurs.

 

[woodchux]

How many spikings does it take to get to the tootsie roll center?

 

[reachtreeservi]

My two cents is that being jabbed by needles doesn't feel too good, let alone getting jabbed hundreds of times. May not kill me but it but it still sucks. I'm sure trees feel the same way about spurs.

Trees don't have feelings. About spurs or anything else.

 

[treesquirrel]

Trees don't have feelings. About spurs or anything else.

Yup, never had one say ouch! while I was kickin a spike into it.

Don't let the sierra club know that trees can feel.

 

[ropensaddle]

Trees don't have feelings. About spurs or anything else.

Now now you never know :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[woodchux]

Spurring a tree might not kill it ...

But it can lead to some pretty advanced decay.