Stock or modded, what's better, lasts longer?

[sawinredneck]

Mr. Hall posted this in another thread, I feel it's worthy of it's own thread, here's the quote:

Really, ok. I recently read a piece from one of the top engineers at Husqvarna. He made it quite simple. The faster it runs the faster it wears out. Same holds true for cars. GM once stated when you run a everyday car over a 100mph you just took 10,000 miles of life out of the engine. Modded saws gain in the cut how, by holding more rpm's in the cut, that is the only way it gains in cut times. Now take that and compare what GM said and the engineer at Husky said. Yes you gain speed but you sacrifice longivity to get it. Is it worth it is the question. To some maybe, to the majority I hardly doubt it. Each to their own but ignoring the facts don't change them.

I also think when the cylinder makers, all of them, lap nikisil around the edge of the ports they do so for a reason. If it didn't matter why do it. How can it be put back once its ground out, it can't. Does it matter, maybe, maybe not. Why pay for maybe's. I recently seen a brand new 372 hang a ring after modded, what was the real cause, nobody knows. Had it been left alone would it had hung up, not likely. A modding mistake made right, thats good, can't fault that at all. Doesn't change the fact though, she hung.

More to a saw than the top end. The bottom end is designed to handle a certain amount of stress. Raise the rpms you raise the stress on the bottom. Raise the compression you raise the stress on the lower rod bearing beyond what its designed to stand. Got that info from Stihl. I'm fairly certain they know abit more about stress than us so I take their word for it.

Most of what I'm saying can't be verified with modded saws. We know a well maintained saw can give 2000 hours of service. Most modded saws aren't used for serious work, mostly for play. I know of no arborist in my area that owns a modded saw, I know a few that laff at it the idea of it, they prefer to make money with their saw, not spend money on it to do a job it can already do.

Finally and foremost and not that I give a rip, its illegal on all new EPA certified saws. Thats the least of my concern but it is what it is.

I'm fairly certain I can get a whole lot more information about why its not such a great idea to alter your chainsaw. I have a huge source at my disposal but I'm not really interested in beating the subject to death. My jawing about it came from all the recent hell raising threads. We don't want this and we don't want that and thats fine but read into it closely these bomb throwing threads are all linked to what, modding. Doesn't bother me at all, let them ole boys fight. However when those fighting start whinning and running to the mods maybe its time to look closely at what the fighting is all about, tends to be the same subject over and over. Letem fight or get rid of the subject they are fussing over if its really that much of a pain, having it both ways just leads to more of what many claim they don't want.

I take exception to a few things stated here. My little POS Husky 350, had it for three years, ran it hard, treated it like a dog. Tore it down and moded it. Run it even harder for the next four years. I like to tear it down once a year, just for a look. Simple little things they are to work on. Piston still looks new, cylinder still looks new, everything is nice and tight and clean as a whistle.
I pull the muffler off my modded 046 now and again for the same reasons, piston shows no wear and all looks good. Four years of moderate use with that saw. The only reasons it doesn't get used that much is my back doesn't like it and most trees around here I just don't need it!
I run modded saws for upped production, I flog on them! Numerous times I've buried the 32" bar in an Oak or Hedge tree. Numerous times I've used that poor 350 to noodle down large chunks, knowing I should grab the bigger saw.
Both of these saws have been nothing but reliable, and durable.
I'm also aware of numerous arborists and professionals starting to run modded equipment. Sure many wont, but a lot are getting educated about the gains made in time on the job site and will not go back to a stock saw after running a stronger one.
I've not had any issues to date with any of the failures indicated above with modded saws. I have had some of these issues with stock saws however, but that's yet another can of worms!
Sorry Tom, not trying to pick on you, just wondered what others have to say about this subject.

 

[Slamm]

I had a modded 441 that ran hard logging for 3 years until I crushed the saw and now the piston and cylinder are on another 441 and running again. How much life do you want out of one? I wouldn't be caught dead with a slow stock saw. Stock 70cc saws suck to fall big hardwoods with.

We run modded 441's and now the guys don't want to run the modded 660's cause the modded 441's are so fast. We get a lot more wood cut, because the saws are lighter, faster and when compared to the larger more comparable modded 660's get much better gas mileage which lets us cut for longer times. They start fine, run fine, idle fine and work hard.

Possibly if the saw is modded by someone who does it wrong or with crappy workmanship than there are issues of reliability and workability, but an unchoked saw is a wonderful tool to drop trees with.

That is my opinion, based on my experience with modded saws and logging,

Sam

 

[Ax-man]

Good thread Andy, I hope it gets some real attention. It makes for good reading .

 

[056kid]

Modded saws are great, but weather or not they will make you more proficient is up to you.

Ive seen modded saws that cut like crosscuts with the butter spreaders of chains wrapped around the bars. . .

 

[Outlaw5.0]

I can't see a dual port muffler cover on a 460/660 hurting the longevity. That is considered a saw mod correct?. Now granted Stihl sells it and over seas saws come from the factory with it.

I'm sure the testing at Stihl has show a reduced life span on "ported" or "modded" saws. The big question is what mod causes the most damage or wear?.

 

[blsnelling]

The dual port cover, plus a larger hole in the muffler body was standard fair at one time.

 

[Slamm]

The dual port cover, plus a larger hole in the muffler body was standard fair at one time.

Yeah, I think one needs to take into consideration that some of the designs behind the stock form is due to EPA and not a saw's life longevity. The muffler is a good case in point.

As to the porting and such, I don't know. I just know that I haven't had any issues with engine life at this point with some saws going over 5 years of use and no problems as related to a port/modd job, and certainly those saws have cut way more wood than a stock version would have.

Sam

 

[sawinredneck]

Good thread Andy, I hope it gets some real attention. It makes for good reading .

Thanks Larry, I'm curious as well, but not very optimistic it's going to go in a meaningful manner.

 

[04ultra]

Stock or modded all suffer longivity with todays gas !!!



Bad gas is the killer of plenty of saws...



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[redprospector]

Longevity shouldn't be an issue when porting a saw. I guess it's an issue when you hang a ring or something, but if the porting is done right you should go into it knowing that an engine only has so many revolutions it will turn before it is worn out. A ported saw will make more revolutions in a given amount of time (as Thall stated), so it's a no brainer that all else being equal the ported saw will last a lesser amount of time.
I have saws that are ported, and saws that are stock. If I'm felling trees by the tree, or by the count, or by the bd. ft. I want a ported saw. I figure the extra production will pay for the shorter life. If I'm cutting firewood for myself I want a stock saw. If I'm racing saws at a competition I want a saw that's been ported to the max. The hotter the porting the less the longevity.
Oh, and a ported saw will use more gas too. The more power you make, the more gas you use. It's all just common sence.

Andy

 

[minnnt]

Longevity shouldn't be an issue when porting a saw. I guess it's an issue when you hang a ring or something, but if the porting is done right you should go into it knowing that an engine only has so many revolutions it will turn before it is worn out. A ported saw will make more revolutions in a given amount of time (as Thall stated), so it's a no brainer that all else being equal the ported saw will last a lesser amount of time.
I have saws that are ported, and saws that are stock. If I'm felling trees by the tree, or by the count, or by the bd. ft. I want a ported saw. I figure the extra production will pay for the shorter life. If I'm cutting firewood for myself I want a stock saw. If I'm racing saws at a competition I want a saw that's been ported to the max. The hotter the porting the less the longevity.
Oh, and a ported saw will use more gas too. The more power you make, the more gas you use. It's all just common sence.

Andy

:agree2:

 

[Boskaerm]

It is common sense, to make an example, on the limit:
A 3,0 litre v8 formula 1 engine is build to last 2 races (max 10 hour), and sometimes they don`t even make that, but it´s got +700 Hp.
Your average 3,0 litre v8 engine, can easy last 60000 miles, but then it´s got only aproxx 250 Hp.

 

[Maldeney]

Torque is key...Not RPM!

RPM is a killer for sure. I agree that everything only has so many "turns" in it.

However I disagree that holding more RPM's in the cut makes the saw cut faster..... Now wait don't scream at me yet:skeleton:

You can build a saw that turns 18K RPM and you can "make" it hold 15K in the cut depending on how hard you push on it.
As an example look at electric motors....a 1HP motor that runs 12K RPM can be stopped on a dime with your fingers. But I suggest you don't try that on a 1HP motor running 1,200 Rpm.....You might lose your hand.:curse:

RPM is not the "key"....Torque is what makes the saw (or any motor) pull when it you start to really work it. HP with no torque is worthless, but torque with no HP is equally worthless.
If you build a saw and increase the torque then you will see real gains without having to sacrifice life expectancy...IMO

The "concern" about RPM in a "work saw" is all about show. Heck face it they sound F'N' mean but it doesn't make them cut much harder. There are builders that I've seen take more time looking for torque, if I am going to have a saw ported then I had better be able to really lean on it when it is done, not just listen to it scream out of the cut.

 

[RBurtcher]

There is a point of diminishing returns to all modification(s).

Thall has some really strong points, but I think off the shelf engines of any brand leave some or a lot of performance on the table due to the manufacturing process and epa limits that engineers don't always anticipate. I know that the manufacturing sector I work in, this holds very true.

Another good topic revisited while keeping things alive and interesting around here for sure. opcorn:

 

[ECsaws]

I have Modded alot of saws in my days, Anyone that tells you that porting a saw will extend the life is full of poo ! any time you create more stress on any internal parts you will decrease its life , weather it be more compression or more RPMs.
weather you widen the ports or raise them you wont ever get the same chamfer as a good oem job I dont care how good you are. wider ports tend to have more ring wear than a raised port but you make sacrifices in other places so it all a catch 22.
Most weekend warriors wont notice it, heck most will neaver wear out a pro saw in a lifetime let alone a modded saw, A pro thats running a properly modded saw will give up that loss of life to put more green on the ground.
Just a good ole muffler mod is different as long as you have the carb set correctly and not pushing the aluminum transfer card less heat should make a happier engine.

 

[DavesMower&Saw]

It's simple math, crank bearings are rated for certain number of revolutions. If you increase the rpms of a saw by 3,000 rpms, that's an extra 180,000 revolutions per hour of use. And that shortens the amount of time before reach the end of the life of that particular part. And that in addition to what Eric said about addition stresses on the parts of the motor, it's easy to see that modding saws will shorten the life of the saw. But most times there's something else that goes wrong before crank bearings, or wear out a set of rings.

A poorly maintained saw will have a dramatically shorter operational life. The best thing you can do is to run sharp chain, clean air filter, fresh fuel, and in properly tuned. That will extend the life of the saw regardless if it's stock or modded.

 

[ScottWojo]

Just a good ole muffler mod is different as long as you have the carb set correctly and not pushing the aluminum transfer card less heat should make a happier engine.

My local machinist told me one of his customers wanted a super fast engine in his dragster. All he wanted was an engine to win one race. The guy made an awesome engine. But there was zero drag. engine was loose as a goose. he won one race. The next race the engine blew to high hell.

A muffler mod does not make the saw engine run faster. It makes it cut faster. And you can accomplish similar things by making a bar with less drag, better chain, better air cleaner etc. When you start pushing the limit with messing with the internals of the engine you do risk a shorter life span.

 

[weimedog]

Ditto what Thall, Ecopsey, and Dave's said..that combination has probably seen more saw guts than any 15 typical members combined! Back that with both engineering facts and common sense and you get a clear picture of the risk...having said that as others have pointed out to some the risk is worth it. Which brings up a point yet again that where there is more art vs. science in the reproduction of specific mods, the more unpredictable the results are going to be in repeatability therefore also is performance & reliability from one saw to the next. And without a way to accurately manufacture & repeat the results of a specific mod or set of mods..the quality of build is determined by the care and craft a specific builder has. Last but not least...this analysis is really all subjective as there is very little actual test data out there to track these builds. There is a thread going on (can't remember which forum now) where a guy is tracking Efco saws...up to 500 tanks of fuel or so along with a definition of the issues along the way..too bad we don't have a way to collect that type of data for the work saws to quantify some of this..

My first instinct would be to say tops ends are going to fail way before lower end issue show up on both modded and stock saws. Rings & lubrication related failures due to speed or heat before those bottom end seals & or bearings (Unless you spin that saw way over the design parameters of those bearing/crank components..is that possible on those really short stroke motors?). Also any hacking by hand is going to vary from job to job so the results have a higher chance of being varied vs. a manufactured product..(Although we all remember the results of core shifts in the casting process displayed a few years back) BUT who cares about long term reliability when it comes to impressing a few at GTG's And the better builders have logger customers who can make more money by dropping trees faster than they lose in wearing out saws due to performance gains (And their saws will probably get smashed before any motor failures anyway!)...which is one of the main reasons there is an custom saw builders community to begin with. This place skews that a bit I think as we have a growing community of hobbyists and landowners who cut that inject the fun & "bling" factor into the metrics of this decision to or not to mod saws!. In my sense of ethics, all is good if eyes are wide open making these decisions...and they can be opened more as a result ...and I hope we over time figure out a way to quantify this more. If more real research and numbers were available that would tend to cut the subjective mud throwing accusations...which is at the heart of most of these nasty long drawn out cyber wars....subjective analysis supported by some set of facts..just enough to argue about.

My suggestion? Have a "thread vault" like the political forum is...where once these things get into a subjective and therefore non productive argument..the mods pitch them into the vault and the ones who want to slug it out can request to do so in there...in that arena of cyber gladiators...a "rubber room" for pride fighters!

 

[Trigger-Time]

I don't have any modified saws, but I think the people that mod saws
is good for guys like me. Stihl has modified saws for years.

Look at
024, 024 Super, 026
034, 034 Super, 036
041, 041 Super
045, 056, 056 Super, 056 Mag II
064 turned into 066
070 turned into 090
And their are others, I guess Stihl found out all of the above
saws lower ends could handle more HP so they modified them.

With out people modifying and racing and good old competition where would we be.
I love my Stihls but if Stihl didn’t have Husky and others to compete with I’m afraid
Our saws wouldn’t be what they are today......but I will leave it to Stihl to for
modifying my saws, beside MM


TT

 

[Zombiechopper]

I agree completely with Tommy.

I also mod every saw I own and always will.

Are they tools? You betcha. Are they way more fun ported? You damn betcha! Reduced lifespan is worth it for me.