Swinging libs and spars?

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TreeHouseBldr

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Question for you guys... Last few days I was dealing with removal of some large ash trees over hanging the property of a nasty neighbor. I experimented with a variety of ways of swinging limbs through appropriate notching. Many times I just didn't trust myself and had to rope the tips to get the groundies to help it hinge. Mostly I would cut a wide face with the hinge pointing midway between straight down and the direction (left or right) I wanted to swing it. Tried leaving more holding wood on the top side. Mixed results. What do you do in these cases and how much swing can one realistically get without a pull line.

Also, there was a recent discussion of dutchman-ing spars. I read through all the posts and tried to make sense of Spyder's theories/facts/fundamental paradigm co-ambulations :) but what I am still unsure of is this: If you notch it, then place a rock in the left side of the notch so that it closes first, will the spar swing left or right? My vote is left.
 
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As far as the stone in the face... are you serious??? Thats just NOT a good idea and only bad things can & will happen if you try!!! HC


:notrolls2:
 
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Ash trees-not great for swinging limbs, too brittle.

When I'm swinging limbs (all depending on size) I actually make my notch on the side and pointing partially up. Then undercut (backut). Get above the limb, reach out with the polesaw and pull the tip up and to the side. Pull up because that is usually why swinging fails, the weight of the tip is too much for your holding wood in your notch. You take away the downward pressure on your notch and backut and it will function as normal.
 
swinging limbs and spars

Use the rope and the groundmen, you are dealing with the neighbor if anything goes wrong and you need the backup (rope if anything goes wrong) safety plan. You can expect to get movment in the right direction until gravity takes over. A rope tied to the tip with a ground crew lets you have more time and less worry about gravity and the neighbors reaction if gravity wins and you have no rope tied in. Ash is not one of the better trees to try a dutchman on a spar trick.
Are you suggesting you are going to use a rock because you don't know how to cut a wedges of wood in different thicknesses when making your facecut or you don't have wedges handy? You can cut your facecut out in pieces of different thicknesses rather than one big wedge. Leave some sawdust in the cut to hold the wedge in place or it will slide right out. Break one of the smaller wedges of wood to the right height/thickness and place it in the cut. Do not use a rock unless you have to.
You can get the tree to swing either right or left no matter which side you choose to put the wedge/rock on, it's all in the facecut/backcut combination you make and the holding wood you leave. You have to answer the questions, are you trying to tip the tree in the right direction or are you trying to get the tree to rotate on the stump then tip in the right direction or both at once. Tie a rope in it just in case it all goes wrong. The backup plan (rope tied in). Make a note, go buy some wedges.
While a rock will work you are not doing geology you are doing trees.
 
A dutchman as i would recommend for this would be in 1 side of face. This would close the push-from side early; while the pull-to side is still open. Once loaded with force/ breathing / moving an open face or side of face pulls; a closed face or side pushes. So splitting the control of the face to 1 side open/pull and other side closed/ push gives specialized/ tailored control rather than just generic both sides open or both sides closed. i set these controls (open/closed commands on how to use force) by how i want to steer and/or the balance of the load/lean. With just generic both sides open equally on sidelean or while trying to keep horizontal up (where we calculate lean as down if trying to move sideways); the lean side of hinge does very little except to keep load from twisting to opposite side. The opposite side of face does all the work with pull force. With this concept of splitting the control of the face; so that lean side pushes as off side pulls; both sides of the face work for you! This also helps with less elastic wood in off side; that gives less pull; if the lean side is solid enough to give push. Like in dead/ but not rotted, more brittle or frozen wood etc.

A kerf in one side of the face achieves this; with a very early close on that side; and will not fall out of a non-horizontal bottom cut like a rock or block will. If you wish not so early a close; don't go as deep and/ or double kerf. This is also good for crane jobs when picking upwards from horizontal; where the rock or block may fall out or back deeper into the cut allowing no movement. The dutch here allows similar load balancing and/or serving to boom.

A lot of times i kerf the bottom of a face who's gun is to the side. So that the top of face pulls up, as the bottom of face pushes up.

i try long hinging of open face mostly with this. i think of a hinge as another rigging point that is dispensable to use along with the rope rigging point. Like if you had a short piece of line, and butt hitched it to load, and on the other side of the facecut as support. Then pivot limb around until hitchpoint of main rig line is under it's support point; then cut the short/ butt hitched line free (dispensible part of that rig).

For most positive steering from main rig line; i try to get full support tension before tearoff of hinge. First i try to get as much slack out of line by ground control pulling linear on line. Then as they continue; i pull perpendicular on line part above load, to enable a leveraged sweating of more purchase from the line. Then, on the backcut; i'll kinda lay some of the weight of the limb down into the line (tightening it more) at first by cutting down/ like to fake the direction i'm going to be down. Then, as it starts to breathe/ move; i'll cut across; into the pull of this tightened line.

You have to remember as the load moves nearer the support point of the line, the line slackens. So, i try to pretighten and then press load down some, to further pre-tighten the line before tearoff. Sometimes to go left i even 'fake' right some, to get an even more intensive line tension; by moving away from the support point, rather than closer initially so line tightens; then pulls load back across tot he intended direction as in Rock around the Clock.

The farther out the line hitchpoint on the limb is from the pivot of the hinge, the more leveraged tightening this gives. Though i keep the softer/ green end heavy; these are not butt tie strategies.

More intense force for turn can be gotten from giving this type of turn on load. One of my first ever drawings from the original ISA board that folded some years ago.
 
It goes the opposite way !

Thanks guys, especially Spyder... I spent some time at your website yesterday and did learn a few things. Mostly that if your dutchman is on the left side when that kerf/face closes than the spar will swing right. Sorry to make you post such a long reply, Spyder. Hopefully it's useful to others as well.

And Beowolf, I hadn't considered that Ash might be deficient in it's hinging ability ... I usually don't think of ash as brittle (tulips, norways ya) but if you say so, I'll take your word for it. Seems like you've done a lot more takedowns than I ever will. Any other types of trees this is tough to do in?

For others, the rock in the notch is just for theory. No need to assume I am some mentally deficient hacker. I use wedges all the time, even up in the tree, keep my little 5" ers with me. Better than a groundie for sucking out the lean.

Any more insights on this topic are welcome...
 
I abide by 2 simple principles,and to this point they have never failed. When in doubt rope it out. When cutting large branches for pruning or takedown, you will only gain a small amout of movement from left to right by cutting a directional notch . It may take a few minutes but try to set a lowering line that will draw the branchs away from obstacales, and to the drop zone. remember that everything wants to hang plumb directly under where the lowering line is set. If its big wood you may want the lowering line to be in two crotches to help spread the weight. consider setting the lowering line with a throw bag so you don't have to do any extra climbing to get the lowering line where you want it.
Second, keep it simple when it comes to notches. An open face notch, wedges, and a pull rope(with a set of 5:1 fiddle blocks) should cover 99 percent of what you might come up against. Pull rope set high in the tree for maximum torque. Pulling anchor point far away from the tree so your pulling out not down. Strive to cut the perfect notch everytime. Use the sights on the saw, put an orange cone where you want the tree to fall and aim for it.Face cuts meet perfect no bypass. Back cut level. Leave enough hinge, thin hinges can break. Don't be afraid to stop cutting and take a careful look at where your back cut is heading, esspecially so you dont go too far. Wedge/pull the tree over when ever possible.
Corey
 
it depends on the type of ash, I swung some green ash limbs clear of a building today no problem, using the technique you described, facecut pointed at 45 degrees down, this allows gravity to do the work( just watch out that the tip doesn't swing clear of the fence only for the butt end to come slapping down ), as far as trees it will vary according region and experience will teach you, pine hinges good, box elder not so good, practice in non critical situations , you can also set a line above your work and set it at the mid balance point on the branch(again, experience will teach you where this is as it will vary depending on type of tree and time of year) then you can place your hinge facing slightly down(but more horizontally than before), the rope will support the weight as the branch drops into your hinge and when it breaks free it will be supported horizontally , it all depends on the situation, and experience is key, which is why it is so important to practice your tricks when it's not all on the line.
 

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