Travelling Climbers pay question.

[adronetree]

I'm not advertising or soliciting for workers on this post just wanted to ask you guys who are A climbers a general and hypothetical question.
If you were offered a job climbing/ground work (50/50) for a spring/summer (say from April-June or from August-October). Maximum 90 days at a time.
If your airfare and housing were taken care of and 2 meals a day provided and you had a car provided to drive around when and where you choose..

Assuming cigarettes, food, and other misc. personal stuff cost at least twice as much as America during your stay...
Assuming workers in that part of Europe were making 200-300 a day for simple unskilled ground labor.
Assuming the trees are baby trees mostly depending on what part of the U.S you are from.
Relatively slow and careful with emphasis on quality of work rather than production. The same production speed is not necessary here.

How much do you think a good climber with no bad habits would be willing to accept to travel and work for a summer?

I know my better climbers in the US I was paying 300 a day and the slower guys 200-250. I have no idea what climber pay is in Norway.

I just wanted to put it out there and see what the general consensus among climbers would be on appropriate pay in that situation?

The guys I know well back in Georgia I wouldn't even ask them what they think because most all of them are either part time drug addicts, have a felony record with no passport, or they have no American citizenship to begin with so they can't travel anyway.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

Hell, I'd do it for 4-500 a day.

 

[Zale]

If they don't pay for smokes, screw 'em.

 

[jefflovstrom]

I spent time on Catalina Island, (4 months), and had to sneak my stuff over there.
Slayer can tell what you need to know.
Jeff

 

[imagineero]

There are too many factors to be able to guess here... But if the employer was providing airfare, accomodation and transport as well as provinding all the gear (climber to bring rope, spurs and saddle) then I'd expect it to be not all that highly paid. At most around $1500 a week for a 5 day week, but I'd imagine somewhere in the $1,000~$1500 range. Here in aus an average contract climber providing some gear (saddle, rope and a few saws) will get around $400/day but that's a casual day rate - no guarantee of getting more than one day's work. A top level climber providing more gear (bigger saws, rigging etc) can command up to $600/day, but there are very few climbers getting that rate and they really are top level climbers. Same story though, no guarantees and the work is going to be difficult and complex.

Based on that, an average to decent climber will make around $2,000/week in the busy season, but out of that they have to pay tax, provide their own gear, their own vehicle, fuel, registration and taxes, and generally their own workers comp/public liability and obviously their own accomodation etc. Seems like it's a good wage, but I'd say most guys are putting less than $1,000/week in their pocket after covering everything when you average it out over a year.

It's a different story obviously for guys doing their own jobs, and most contract climbers are making good money doing their own work, then contracting to fill in the blank days because it's better than nothing. Working full time for a company here as a climber where they provide all equipment and PPE, and generally a vehicle and insurance will earn you $1,000~$1,500/week. You still have to pay your own accommodation out of that.

So I'd say $1,500 would be a very fair wage to offer to someone if you were providing accomodation and a vehicle and insurance, and most of the gear.

It's probably worth noting that production climbers tend to get pretty frustrated with fine pruning work and vice versa. Guys in the UK seem to do a lot of that finer stuff. Horses for courses.

Shaun

 

[jefflovstrom]

There are too many factors to be able to guess here... But if the employer was providing airfare, accomodation and transport as well as provinding all the gear (climber to bring rope, spurs and saddle) then I'd expect it to be not all that highly paid. At most around $1500 a week for a 5 day week, but I'd imagine somewhere in the $1,000~$1500 range. Here in aus an average contract climber providing some gear (saddle, rope and a few saws) will get around $400/day but that's a casual day rate - no guarantee of getting more than one day's work. A top level climber providing more gear (bigger saws, rigging etc) can command up to $600/day, but there are very few climbers getting that rate and they really are top level climbers. Same story though, no guarantees and the work is going to be difficult and complex.

Based on that, an average to decent climber will make around $2,000/week in the busy season, but out of that they have to pay tax, provide their own gear, their own vehicle, fuel, registration and taxes, and generally their own workers comp/public liability and obviously their own accomodation etc. Seems like it's a good wage, but I'd say most guys are putting less than $1,000/week in their pocket after covering everything when you average it out over a year.

It's a different story obviously for guys doing their own jobs, and most contract climbers are making good money doing their own work, then contracting to fill in the blank days because it's better than nothing. Working full time for a company here as a climber where they provide all equipment and PPE, and generally a vehicle and insurance will earn you $1,000~$1,500/week. You still have to pay your own accommodation out of that.

So I'd say $1,500 would be a very fair wage to offer to someone if you were providing accomodation and a vehicle and insurance, and most of the gear.

It's probably worth noting that production climbers tend to get pretty frustrated with fine pruning work and vice versa. Guys in the UK seem to do a lot of that finer stuff. Horses for courses.

Shaun

Dang, you can type alot!
Are you married?
Jeff :msp_biggrin:

 

[CanopyGorilla]

I need a better job....

 

[adronetree]

There are too many factors to be able to guess here... But if the employer was providing airfare, accomodation and transport as well as provinding all the gear (climber to bring rope, spurs and saddle) then I'd expect it to be not all that highly paid. At most around $1500 a week for a 5 day week, but I'd imagine somewhere in the $1,000~$1500 range. Here in aus an average contract climber providing some gear (saddle, rope and a few saws) will get around $400/day but that's a casual day rate - no guarantee of getting more than one day's work. A top level climber providing more gear (bigger saws, rigging etc) can command up to $600/day, but there are very few climbers getting that rate and they really are top level climbers. Same story though, no guarantees and the work is going to be difficult and complex.

Based on that, an average to decent climber will make around $2,000/week in the busy season, but out of that they have to pay tax, provide their own gear, their own vehicle, fuel, registration and taxes, and generally their own workers comp/public liability and obviously their own accomodation etc. Seems like it's a good wage, but I'd say most guys are putting less than $1,000/week in their pocket after covering everything when you average it out over a year.

It's a different story obviously for guys doing their own jobs, and most contract climbers are making good money doing their own work, then contracting to fill in the blank days because it's better than nothing. Working full time for a company here as a climber where they provide all equipment and PPE, and generally a vehicle and insurance will earn you $1,000~$1,500/week. You still have to pay your own accommodation out of that.

So I'd say $1,500 would be a very fair wage to offer to someone if you were providing accomodation and a vehicle and insurance, and most of the gear.

It's probably worth noting that production climbers tend to get pretty frustrated with fine pruning work and vice versa. Guys in the UK seem to do a lot of that finer stuff. Horses for courses.

Shaun

Like I said before, the average laborer here is making approx. 250-300 a day in US dollars or 180-250 NOK per hour.
..I think a climber should make more than a laborer regardless of what he's used to in his own country....
I brought a carpenter from the US to help me on my Norway house and I payed him 35$ an hour plus airfare, food, and housing. I told him not to get pissed off later that carpenters here are making a good bit more....About halfway through his stay he started to get a little irritated when he realized freelance carpenters here are charging give or take 100$ an hour at a skill level equal to or less than his. He still agreed to what he agreed to previously and I did warn him but he still got a little attitude and complained about it every day when he was here. He left with around 10k cash and now he asks to come back so I guess it wasn't that bad after all.........

Looks like climbers make a different rate in different states as well. 300 is standard good pay in Georgia with a normal company. Theres plenty of jack asses who try to pay less but I have never been one of them.
I believe in high quality work and I've always been proud of what I do whether I make money or not....I will lose money if necessary and I have lost many times to keep a good name.

Though I have always carried it I have never required climbers to have their own workers comp. Workers comp is one of the biggest scams running but thats another topic altogether that I won't get into.
Here there is no workers comp with the national healthcare deal. Your healthcare or emergency visits are covered by Norway even as a tourist or foreign national.

Hmm looks like guys might be happy with less than what they would actually make. The 13$ a pack smokes is definitely an issue though.

 

[imagineero]

Like I said before, the average laborer here is making approx. 250-300 a day in US dollars or 180-250 NOK per hour.
..I think a climber should make more than a laborer regardless of what he's used to in his own country....
I brought a carpenter from the US to help me on my Norway house and I payed him 35$ an hour plus airfare, food, and housing. I told him not to get pissed off later that carpenters here are making a good bit more....About halfway through his stay he started to get a little irritated when he realized freelance carpenters here are charging give or take 100$ an hour at a skill level equal to or less than his. He still agreed to what he agreed to previously and I did warn him but he still got a little attitude and complained about it every day when he was here. He left with around 10k cash and now he asks to come back so I guess it wasn't that bad after all.........

Looks like climbers make a different rate in different states as well. 300 is standard good pay in Georgia with a normal company. Theres plenty of jack asses who try to pay less but I have never been one of them.
I believe in high quality work and I've always been proud of what I do whether I make money or not....I will lose money if necessary and I have lost many times to keep a good name.

Though I have always carried it I have never required climbers to have their own workers comp. Workers comp is one of the biggest scams running but thats another topic altogether that I won't get into.
Here there is no workers comp with the national healthcare deal. Your healthcare or emergency visits are covered by Norway even as a tourist or foreign national.

Hmm looks like guys might be happy with less than what they would actually make. The 13$ a pack smokes is definitely an issue though.

I'm sure the average labourer is quite well paid, as they are in australia, but are they receiving free rent, a vehicle (presumably with a fuel allowance?) and a return air ticket in return for only 90 days work? Based on 90 days, and based on rent, fuel and vehicle costs in australia which I guess are comparable to europe, those options would add around $650/week to a persons salary package assuming that a vehicle costs $10,000/year ($200/week), accommodation at $300/week, and a return air ticket at $1,800 ($150/week). Add in a wage of $1,500/week and that person is receiving the equivalent of $2,150/week, or $430/day and presumably incurring none of the expenses that a contract climber who works for $400~$500/day generally incurs (chains, fuel, insurance, vehicle, accommodation etc). Actually a very good deal, especially when considering that he isn't getting slayed by having to smash out huge tree every day which is generally the life of a contract climber. Plus, he's bound to get laid by hot Norwegian twins. Can I apply also?

The bigger worry is probably at your end. How do you know he's going to be a quality climber? That's a big investment, and you won't get the chance to give him a day on the ropes. What if he can't climb to save his life? Or if he's just generally a slacker/flake, alcoholic, drug issues etc... Very nice of you to consider the $13/pack for smokes, but personally I try to avoid hiring smokers. Nothing against smokers, but I don't want people smoking around me. I love my fresh air.

Shaun

 

[adronetree]

I'm sure the average labourer is quite well paid, as they are in australia, but are they receiving free rent, a vehicle (presumably with a fuel allowance?) and a return air ticket in return for only 90 days work? Based on 90 days, and based on rent, fuel and vehicle costs in australia which I guess are comparable to europe, those options would add around $650/week to a persons salary package assuming that a vehicle costs $10,000/year ($200/week), accommodation at $300/week, and a return air ticket at $1,800 ($150/week). Add in a wage of $1,500/week and that person is receiving the equivalent of $2,150/week, or $430/day and presumably incurring none of the expenses that a contract climber who works for $400~$500/day generally incurs (chains, fuel, insurance, vehicle, accommodation etc). Actually a very good deal, especially when considering that he isn't getting slayed by having to smash out huge tree every day which is generally the life of a contract climber. Plus, he's bound to get laid by hot Norwegian twins. Can I apply also?

The bigger worry is probably at your end. How do you know he's going to be a quality climber? That's a big investment, and you won't get the chance to give him a day on the ropes. What if he can't climb to save his life? Or if he's just generally a slacker/flake, alcoholic, drug issues etc... Very nice of you to consider the $13/pack for smokes, but personally I try to avoid hiring smokers. Nothing against smokers, but I don't want people smoking around me. I love my fresh air.

Shaun

Shaun I agree I'd have to watch the guy or know him a little before importing. In Georgia I hired and fired more than a hundred guys in a few year period in my own company and thats only running 1 to 2 crews with 4-8 men... Before that I ran a crew of around 50 tree guys for another company and every Friday I had to send a handful home. In my mind its easy to see whos going to work out after the first day. Once you've been around enough you can spot the alchohol/drug problems a mile away.

It is an investment, but from my end hiring a Norwegian is near impossible and will cost much more or I wouldn't be considering this to begin with. I would imagine an experienced Norwegian climber would want somewhere around the 100$/hr. mark if you could find one at all. There are a few here but mostly in Oslo(4hrs away) and they usually have their own company. Its very different from the US.

And after watching videos of jobs in Australia the trees here are a joke. They are Australian shrubs....
Being a climber in northern Europe would be much different than being one in Australia. Is it Southeastern Australia where the bad ones are or is it nationwide??
I would not climb alot of the trees I've seen on youtube where you live, no way. If a 660 becomes your primary climbing saw and you are using 60 meter bucket trucks then I guess you really earn your pay.

 

[imagineero]

Yeah I hear you on the hiring and firing. It's hard to find motivated ground workers in Australia, though honestly it's not the best paying job and the working conditions are also not fantastic. It doesn't pay any more than any other type of general labouring/construction work, and it is tough work and also dangerous. The only plus side is that if you finish the job early you still go home with a full days pay, but truth be told this sort of work only appeals to those who like the work itself. They're the only ones who stay in the industry. They don't do it for the money, but for the love of the work.

The south east is where we get the real big trees here, victoria and tasmania where they get the Eucalyptus Regnans growing in the 200'~300' range. I used to work mostly in the blue mountains where we still have many trees in the 100'~15' range but nowadays I'm in the city where most of the trees are exotic and much smaller. Native trees really are awful work to cut here. There are taller trees in other parts of the world but they're mostly conifers are fairly soft. The eucalypts are generally hard, the bark is often full of grit, and the sap quickly gums up your saw so chains don't last long. They're also very dense/heavy, so very unpleasant to handle and chip.

I still do large trees from time to time, but I've put my contract climbing days behind me for the most part. Contract climbing in aus is a young mans game. When a company calls you in for a tree it's usually going to be big, dangerous and complex, otherwise they would do it themselves. Punching out a single tree with 50 cubes of mulch in it, all hard dense wood, over a house is pretty much the order of the day. As a contract climber you start to realise that you could make the same amount of money by doing someones hedge. You get burnt out real fast if you keep the contract work up. I still do contract from time to time with people I know and trust, and still do punch out a big tree every now and then, but for the most part I'm taking out trees that are more in the 20~30 cubes of mulch size and my body and gear thanks me very much for it. My bank balance hasn't suffered at all!

Shaun

 

[imagineero]

I was just having a look through the norwegian government website about the visas, it seems kind of strict and seems to generally require a minimum 3 year degree for a skilled worker, are tree workers eligible to get working visas if they are sponsored by a company? It also says the work offer must generally be for a year, and that the pay rate cannot be less than what is offered locally. Have you successfully sponsored a tree worker in past? I've got a buddy who sponsors climbers from the UK here in aus and has never had problems with it, even if they aren't very highly qualified.

As an aside, do you guys work in winter also?

Shaun

 

[beastmaster]

I would board the plane tomorrow for room and board, a car and 250.00 a day. I'm half Norwegian and always wanted to see the
mother country. How cold does it get there?.

 

[RAG66]

Not to high jack the thread but where are these contract climbers? I get calls from the "climber" who is out of work, the other company can't give him enough work. I am far from egotistical but I have a hard time trusting someone. $2 - 3 hundred a day is big bucks to have an unknown come in and tear a gutter, porch light, or landscape to shreds. If your a top level climber in the PNW I want to see what top level is. I would pay to see what it looks like. For the time being I'll keep putting on the spurs & belt, and reving the 020 to the moon!

 

[beastmaster]

Not to high jack the thread but where are these contract climbers? I get calls from the "climber" who is out of work, the other company can't give him enough work. I am far from egotistical but I have a hard time trusting someone. $2 - 3 hundred a day is big bucks to have an unknown come in and tear a gutter, porch light, or landscape to shreds. If your a top level climber in the PNW I want to see what top level is. I would pay to see what it looks like. For the time being I'll keep putting on the spurs & belt, and reving the 020 to the moon!

Oh their out there. I am a contract climber of sorts, but sense I don't carry my own insurance, i'm on the payroll of several Companys and growing. I'm old and slow and I get 250.00 a day most days. I have lots of experence and am well known locally. If you had a job to do and no one to do it, what would it be worth to have some one come in one day or two and safely knock it out? I'v gotten as much as 500.00 a day. This is the land of the 12 dollar an hour climbers too.

 

[adronetree]

I was just having a look through the norwegian government website about the visas, it seems kind of strict and seems to generally require a minimum 3 year degree for a skilled worker, are tree workers eligible to get working visas if they are sponsored by a company? It also says the work offer must generally be for a year, and that the pay rate cannot be less than what is offered locally. Have you successfully sponsored a tree worker in past? I've got a buddy who sponsors climbers from the UK here in aus and has never had problems with it, even if they aren't very highly qualified.

As an aside, do you guys work in winter also?

Shaun

Sorry its been a minute since I've been online. Busy.
Anyone is eligible for a working visa if sponsored by a company. A company must claim they cannot find this type of help locally which is not difficult to do.
With Norway the more you look into regulations the more you will find. America has many regulations also but its not common for most to follow them.
Its like America in a way when it comes to enforcement though. Depending on where you are there is no one who cares or who are checking.
If the jobsite is a government contract such as roadwork etc.. then the authorities are looking for qualifications from the contractor when bidding the job.If its private or residential work then there is no enforcement whatsoever. If someone got killed or seriously injured on the job then their version of OSHA may get involved and the company may in some type of trouble or be in a fine situation but otherwise no enforcement and no governing body to check.
They have an EU treeworker certification that allows you to work in any EU participant country but its very simple to get. Takes a few days and some paperwork. It requires proof of a certain amount of experience that can be done with reference affidavit. This would be the equivalent to other trades proof of education...
And yes you are required to pay at or above the standard set pay rate for the trade. I do not know for sure but I believe the minimum for treework is around 180KR an hour or just over 30$ an hour. Overtime is also required for over 40 hours or weekends. Double time I believe for any holiday hours.

I have yet to import anyone properly or officially; just starting to consider my own tree business here. I'm still getting familiar with the ins and outs myself.
Hope this answers a few of your questions. I'll know more specifics later.

And yes they work in the winter. All the loggers here work more in the winter I believe.
It opens up access points you do not have in the summer due to all the rocks and mud. Keeps yard damage to 0 also. This is from last winter trying out my Iron Horse...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHSlh2n_lM4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtxmlTjK-1A&feature=youtu.be

 

[adronetree]

Hey

I would board the plane tomorrow for room and board, a car and 250.00 a day. I'm half Norwegian and always wanted to see the
mother country. How cold does it get there?.

Beastmaster I'm in Southern Norway in Arendal. I would say winter temperature is equivalent to Northern Virginia, Pennsylvania maybe. Colder than North Georgia mountains but not by much. A good bit of snow depending on the year. The big difference is the length of the winter. 4-5 months

 

[RVALUE]

Sorry its been a minute since I've been online. Busy.
Anyone is eligible for a working visa if sponsored by a company. A company must claim they cannot find this type of help locally which is not difficult to do.
With Norway the more you look into regulations the more you will find. America has many regulations also but its not common for most to follow them.
Its like America in a way when it comes to enforcement though. Depending on where you are there is no one who cares or who are checking.
If the jobsite is a government contract such as roadwork etc.. then the authorities are looking for qualifications from the contractor when bidding the job.If its private or residential work then there is no enforcement whatsoever. If someone got killed or seriously injured on the job then their version of OSHA may get involved and the company may in some type of trouble or be in a fine situation but otherwise no enforcement and no governing body to check.
They have an EU treeworker certification that allows you to work in any EU participant country but its very simple to get. Takes a few days and some paperwork. It requires proof of a certain amount of experience that can be done with reference affidavit. This would be the equivalent to other trades proof of education...
And yes you are required to pay at or above the standard set pay rate for the trade. I do not know for sure but I believe the minimum for treework is around 180KR an hour or just over 30$ an hour. Overtime is also required for over 40 hours or weekends. Double time I believe for any holiday hours.

I have yet to import anyone properly or officially; just starting to consider my own tree business here. I'm still getting familiar with the ins and outs myself.
Hope this answers a few of your questions. I'll know more specifics later.

And yes they work in the winter. All the loggers here work more in the winter I believe.
It opens up access points you do not have in the summer due to all the rocks and mud. Keeps yard damage to 0 also. This is from last winter trying out my Iron Horse...
Iron Horse - YouTube
Iron Horse 2 Norway - YouTube

When people visit us from Europe, they always claim to be 'on holiday.'

Does the reverse qualify for holiday pay? :msp_wink:


Just stirring the pot, I can't do it.

Tarry on.

 

[adronetree]

When people visit us from Europe, they always claim to be 'on holiday.'

Does the reverse qualify for holiday pay? :msp_wink:


Just stirring the pot, I can't do it.

Tarry on.

Thats a handy looking airgun on your post. Gotta love blowing insulation and other misc. dust all over your face every time you shoot the nail gun. Might help occasionally.