Tree lifespans

[JamesTX]

Do trees have natural life spans like humans and animals or will they live forever as long as they get nutrients?

How long will an oak live, on average?

Just curious.
James

 

[Ekka]

Yes there are life expectancies for trees, which vary from site to site.

Around my parts an oak would have pretty bad chances of a good long life, eucs on the other hand would have good prospects.

Just the other day an new guy fresh out from UK saw a Ficus Elastica and recognised it as they had the odd one back in UK. Asked how old that one would be, "around 50 years," I said ... "jeez 50 years old," he exclaimed, back in UK for one to get that big it would be around 150 years old.

So, I'm no expert on Oaks, but yes, trees have a lifetime.

Have you heard of Memorial Trees?

Quite a fitting tribute, they plant trees for lost soldiers etc and it's quite a fitting memorial as eventually the trees mature then decline, are removed etc ... just like our life cycle. And by the time the tree is dead and gone nobody remembers the individual it was planted for anyways.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I disagree, trees don't have a life span. If they have their environmental needs met and don't get damaged by disease or other outside factors, there's no reason they have to die.
Consider some trees are thousands of years old.
There was an arborist in my area who when encountering a tree dying and he didn't know why, would say, "Yep, she's just dying of old age."
People bought into it, not me though, especially when it was a young tree.

 

[JamesTX]

Do you think that humans can positively impact the longevity and health of a tree in the wild that has no immediate health problems? By pruning, trimming, feeding, etc.?

 

[Treeman14]

Consider some trees are thousands of years old.

Do you have a lot of them in Wisconsin? Do they just live forever?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Eventually even long lived trees run up against genetic limits and can not protect themselves from organisms in the environment that want to consume them as a food source.

You say they change genetically? It seems to me that they stay the same. Cuttings from an old tree can be used to grow new trees, genetically identical to the parent, if the genes changed wouldn't the cutting be different?
What I think happens is the tree lives until some outside force kills it. The longer it lives the more chances there are of something happening, and as it gets bigger it's exposed to more things like wind, lightening, timber harvest, deadly disease like Oak Wilt or whatever. The tree also has self defeating problems in many cases, like co-dominant stems, that can tear apart and cause its demise.
Of course man is a major disease of trees.
If somehow there could be a perfect set of growing conditions and on going care and protection, I think it could live until that changed.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I disagree, trees don't have a life span. If they have their environmental needs met and don't get damaged by disease or other outside factors, there's no reason they have to die.
Consider some trees are thousands of years old.

That's just a few species, and still they have a finite life.

I think. :alien:

 

[Ekka]

It's like old age in humans, who do you know of that's died of old age? ... no body, they all die of something .... heart failure, respitory failure, stroke etc.

As we age our "vigor" diminishes (actually starts around 30) and our susceptibility to other problems increases. To the point that the elderly get KO'd by flu's and heat waves etc.

Trees are similar, they get senescent.

Every year a tree tries to grow a new shell over the old, it's only the outer part that's living. The entire system of roots thru to branches is in a continual renewal phase which is fed from energy resources.

Like we have economic booms and busts; trees experience environmental booms and busts. Over a period of time they'll be wounded just like we're taxed! Sometimes the ability to grow the new shell will be compromised and wounds will remain exposed ..... bla bla bla and the tree eventually dies.

Some species are short lived like our wattles, 10 to 20 years, you'll get the odd one do better and a lot do worse too.

Don't forget all those pretty little flowery plants have a very finite life span, annuals 1 year ... biannuals 2 years ... perennials 2 to 10 maybe.

Unlimited life span ... not on this planet.

 

[TreemanFJR]

Do you think that humans can positively impact the longevity and health of a tree in the wild that has no immediate health problems? By pruning, trimming, feeding, etc.?

This is a very open ended question. What is a tree in the wild? I'm assuming a forest dominated ecosystem. Of course we can positively impact a tree in a forest ecosystem. Will it happen? It depends.

There is privately owned land and there is land owned by the government. The most significant reason for any impact on these lands is for timber harvesting. Other land the government will impact is Wildlife Refugee Areas, Historical Sites, and research plots. In the governments case, the forest service and sometimes the department of natural resources will do TSI(Tree Stand Improvement) work. This consists mainly of prescribed fires and thinning to remove undesirable species and to "release" the desirable species. They don't prune forested trees, and they don't use fertilzer.

Now a private landowner can go as far a the green dollar will take them. If they want to mange their timber for harvesting, they can. If they want to manage their timber for wildlife or aesthetics, they can. Fertilizer, herbicides, and whatever else can be done if the money is there. Now whether it is economically feasible is another story.

But again, the main reason to positively impact a large stand is for timber harvesting which in turn can be sustainable. And as always, the least amount of cost possible is put into the stand while trying to maximize the gain.

 

[JamesTX]

Thanks. I got to thinking about this becasue we built a cabin and through the window I can see a big old live oak.

So, I started wondering how long it'll be there. Then I started wondering if there was anything that could be done to increase it's odds of living.

Trimming dead branches, trimming interior branches, removing climbing vines, clearing surrounding brush - do these help or is an established "wild" tree in equilibrium with it's environment and I shouldn't mess with it?

What about fertilizer? I'm sure I could get some results from fertilizer, but would this upset the trees equilibrium?

I'd like to thank everyone that is willing to discuss these things with me. It's interesting exploring new areas of knowledge.

 

[Stumper]

James, Removing old dead branches would be mildly beneficial but I mostly agree with Dan -back away-with one exception-watch the vines. Vines wrapping up a section of the canopy can shade out/strangle healthy branches and throw a tree into decline. Vime removal is an area where I think your interference could be beneficial-just do so with care so as to prevent injury to the tree.

 

[JamesTX]

Thanks. The tree had some large groups of smilax vines that I pulled down. I'm going to spray Remedy on the new vine sprouts to kill them off. Hopefully I didn't do much more damage than a good storm would.

I cleared out a bunch of Persimmon that was growing up under the tree. That should free up some water for use by the tree. I'll spray the stumps with Remedy to prevent grow back. All this spraying will be done in stages. I don't want too much under the tree at any one time.

Eventually, I'd like to put some spotlights in the tree - it'd make a great focal point for evenings on the deck. But when I do that, I'll look into getting a pro out there to do any trimming of dead branches.

Thanks.

 

[TreemanFJR]

Keeping our eyes on the dollar.

Improving a stand for timber harvesting is not an improvement in the trees health. Trees don't have to grow straight to be healthy. It's looking at the trees for what they can do for humans and dollars and there is a difference. Thinning kills the removed trees. Aerial spraying of herbicides kills the hardwoods. Mono culture invites insects and disease. Killing trees for lumber does not improve the trees health. Animals are harvested in a sustainable fashion but it's not for the animals health either.



Dan

Dan, your right saying that killing a tree doesn't improve it. I also agree with you when you say improving a stand for timber production doesn't necessarily mean you are improving the trees health. All I was trying to say was that, generally whole forest stands don't receive treatment unless there is some sort of benefit. I think I'm off track as to what James was asking anyways.

James, are you trying to maintain one tree in a stand?
From what it sounds like, de-vining and removing the persimmon around the tree is a great idea.

 

[JamesTX]

Treeman - this is in central Texas. I don't have big stands of magnificent trees, just a few isolated ones surrounded by less desirable specimens.

So, I'm clearing around this one tree and I'm in the process of further clearing around other select trees. Trying to achieve a balance of trees/view/shade/openness/etc.

 

[Ekka]

Eventually, I'd like to put some spotlights in the tree - it'd make a great focal point for evenings on the deck. But when I do that, I'll look into getting a pro out there to do any trimming of dead branches.

Try not to ...

A/ Fix the lights to the tree

B/ Damage roots when digging a trench for electical conduit

C/ Have them on all the time as even artificial light can prolong photosynthesis and expiration exposing the tree to pollutants and insect damage

Just have it as a feature you can turn on/off as you please.

Also, mulching around the tree, to it's drip line would be beneficial to retain moisture, suppress grass and weeds and add some organic matter back to the soil.

On well matured old trees they reckon max 5% pruning any year (excludes dead wood), pays to remember that for the future just in case ... so least is best.

 

[treeseer]

I disagree, trees don't have a life span. If they have their environmental needs met and don't get damaged by disease or other outside factors, there's no reason they have to die.

I'm with mike on this one, esp when I'm in this manic mystical mood. Tom Wolfe wrote a book called Jitterbug Perfume, in which a man and a woman found the key to immortality--a magic blend of botanical essences, eating beets, dancing, and Tantric Yoga Sex. After 900 years the woman got a little bored and wanted to end it all, but the man was slow to give it all up. I forget how it ended, long time since I read it.

Trees and humans have infinite potential. :angel:

Smilax is an associate to the tree, but if you wanna get rid of em and persimmon sprouts just keep clipping to the ground til they get tired.

James you're right to focus on the roots--get your soil tested before you do anything to it.

 

[JamesTX]

Is Remedy safe to use in a trees root zone?

You need to know before your good intentions do more harm than good.

You have to mix properly in the correct proportions, watch the overspray and just spray enough to wet the target, but not to the point of dripping. It is strong, but can be used properly.

But, don't worry, I'll reread the label a dozen times or so before spraying.

 

[JamesTX]

Smilax is an associate to the tree, but if you wanna get rid of em and persimmon sprouts just keep clipping to the ground til they get tired.

James you're right to focus on the roots--get your soil tested before you do anything to it.

What do you mean - "an associate to the tree"? I thought they were detrimental - as Stumper said?

Where do you go to get soil tested - the County Ag Extension Office?

 

[treeseer]

"What do you mean - "an associate to the tree"? I thought they were detrimental - as Stumper said?"
I do not disagree with CO. he said: "Vines wrapping up a section of the canopy can shade out/strangle healthy branches and throw a tree into decline. "
Smilax does not strangle. I'm not trelling you not to remove your briers, i'm just saying poison is not needed. I spray (some of) mine with Roundup when the leaves are young. Your choice.

Where do you go to get soil tested - the County Ag Extension Office?
Yes.

"I agree. But we will not fulfill this potential without gene manipulation."
Dan I do not follow. If genes are manipulated the organism is changed. I think we and trees can fulfill our potential without becoming something else.
I'm leaving now; Jitterbug Perfume forever!

 

[Ekka]

I'm with mike on this one, esp when I'm in this manic mystical mood.

Oh, there's safety in numbers!

How ridiculous to even consider that the earth will be a eutopia. The ozone's getting stuffed up, the greenhouse gases are leading to rising temperatures ...

... so your little ring of mulch and pruning here and there doesn't isloate you from the planet. What happened to those weirdo's that went into that big bio atmosphere thingo somewhere and tried to tough it out for 5 years?

New bugs come and old ones go, aids came 1980's and still no cure, neither for cancer etc what's coming tomorrow? :alien:

New tree bugs come, old ones built resistance to control methods etc and so on ... the earth relies on finite resources. The dead and decaying are food for the living. It's one big wheel of renewal.

Don't get me wrong, the concept is ideal, however not real.