New England Jim
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This tree blew down in my woodlot the other day. The tree had a few dead toppers but I thought it was pretty strong. wow I guess I was wrong. check out the rot in the base.
tree looked fine
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ozy365
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A lot of lichen on the smaller trees and the larger tree on the right looks like some mech damage part way up. was the tree that fell near your skid path/road on your wood lot? Is there any sign of damage to the base?
Kneejerk Bombas
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Failure on this one would be easy to predict, it had co-dominant stems, included bark, and may even have been two shoots growing up off a small stump at one time.
Hey Guy, would you have recommended crown reduction for this one? Haha!
Hey Guy, would you have recommended crown reduction for this one? Haha!
Kneejerk Bombas
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ozy365 said:
What's that got to do with anything?
New England Jim
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The base of the tree looked good, I had dropped a few smaller trees near it about two months ago and had looked at the tree and it was fine. The tree is away from any paths/roads going in. I do notice alot of dead tops on alot of the trees in the wood lot though. I figure this was due to a very dry summer a few years back. I also see alot of ant dammage in my trees when I drop them.
Kneejerk Bombas
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New England Jim said:
It may have looked good to you, but a trained eye would have seen the co-dominant stems and included bark. Closer inspection would have shown a hole from inside the crotch right to the ground.
Here's a picture of a crotch with similar characteristics, can you see it's weakness?
http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment_29192.php
Your tree was much weaker because it had a larger load and greater distance from the weak crotch to the tree top, which applies more leverage than a short branch.
New England Jim
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Wow, I see what you mean. This tree was doomed from the beginning . thanks for the input guys.
Kneejerk Bombas
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Had you wanted to try and help a tree like this, you could have run a cable across, about 2/3s of the way up from the bad crotch to the tree top, from one side to the other. Arborist supply stores sell all kinds of different systems to hold thing together, without hurting the tree.
Unfortunately for your tree it's too late. but now you have something to do this weekend. Get to work cleaning that up!
Unfortunately for your tree it's too late. but now you have something to do this weekend. Get to work cleaning that up!
BlueRidgeMark
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A pigyback question?
On Mike's picture I see a phenomenon that I've noticed before. Take a look at a closeup of the tree, just below the crotch. There is a pattern of cracks in the bark which I suppose is normal for this species. But right about at the yellow line, the texture of the bark abruptly changes. There are a few cracks which go above that line, but overall, the texture changes almost as suddenly as if it were a Photoshopped picture that combined two different trees.
Why is that?
On Mike's picture I see a phenomenon that I've noticed before. Take a look at a closeup of the tree, just below the crotch. There is a pattern of cracks in the bark which I suppose is normal for this species. But right about at the yellow line, the texture of the bark abruptly changes. There are a few cracks which go above that line, but overall, the texture changes almost as suddenly as if it were a Photoshopped picture that combined two different trees.
Why is that?
Kneejerk Bombas
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Many trees have smooth bark that changes to coarse bark as the diameter of the tree increases. Silver Maple or Cottonwood come to mind as trees that have this characteristic.
What you see in this picture is the transitional area where the diameter of the tree is getting to that size where the bark is changing. I don't know what kind of tree this, but my guess is that if we looked below this point we'd see the bark slowly changing to a coarser texture.
A more interesting question is how a smooth bark tree increases in diameter without splitting the bark.
What you see in this picture is the transitional area where the diameter of the tree is getting to that size where the bark is changing. I don't know what kind of tree this, but my guess is that if we looked below this point we'd see the bark slowly changing to a coarser texture.
A more interesting question is how a smooth bark tree increases in diameter without splitting the bark.
Tom Dunlap
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Bark cracks can have some relevance to the age and vigor of the branches or stems. If a certain diameter branch has smoother bark compared to other similar sized branches in the tree or other trees of the same species nearby it is growing faster than the others. What does this mean? sometimes nothing, sometimes that it is the one to pay attention to. Look at water sprouts in fruit trees for the best example. When I want to subordinate I tned to look for slower growing limbs when I have the choice. If I want to encourage growth, I tend to look for the smooth barked limb.
Why the cracks in one place and not in the another, probably the one factor is balance/disbalance of growing of wood and development of bark. Another, temperature and sun effects and the circumstance that if in some place crack appeared then it will remain there and will grow in dimensions allowing to remain uncracked of the nearest bark areas.
smokechase II
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Mike Mass:
I don't understand the phrase "included bark".
Thanks for any explanation.
New England Jim:
On the cable thing; I've used slats of masonite to buffer a plastic coated cable from rubbing into to stems. They may, however, not last for long in a wet environment. A turnbuckle to connect can allow for expansion.
A mistake I made was not trimming back enough on a mostly horizontal limb. Foolishly thinking that my cable set-up was really neat. Don't skip the trimming.
You guessed it. It was a bad "Sizzle tries .... day" for me.
That tree (a mid sized-older cherry), is now disassembled and awaiting buttermilk in the stump this spring.
(I'm not an arborist; I suspect that this type of error was predictable to most.)
I don't understand the phrase "included bark".
Thanks for any explanation.
New England Jim:
On the cable thing; I've used slats of masonite to buffer a plastic coated cable from rubbing into to stems. They may, however, not last for long in a wet environment. A turnbuckle to connect can allow for expansion.
A mistake I made was not trimming back enough on a mostly horizontal limb. Foolishly thinking that my cable set-up was really neat. Don't skip the trimming.
You guessed it. It was a bad "Sizzle tries .... day" for me.
That tree (a mid sized-older cherry), is now disassembled and awaiting buttermilk in the stump this spring.
(I'm not an arborist; I suspect that this type of error was predictable to most.)
Kneejerk Bombas
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smokechase II said:
Basically, with a narrow crotch angle, the bark that is between the stems stays there. No wood fiber grows through the bark so the connection is weak.
Here's a good picture or two:http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/planting/spliteasily.htm
Tom Dunlap
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smokechase II said:
Don Blair has said that included bark branches "are living together but not married"
Do NOT, NOT, NOT!!! Wrap cables around limbs. Get hold of the A300 Cabling and Bracing standards and learn how to cable trees properly. Wrapping cable is not different thatn girth hitching a rubber band around your finger. What happens?
Pruning isn't always required when cabling. It is something to consider though. It all depends on the situation.
Kneejerk Bombas
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Not to pick a nit...but some cabling systems, mostly those made of synthetic rope, do exactly that. They do incorporate a way for the loop to expand as the tree grows though.Tom Dunlap said:
New England Jim
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Thanks for all the info guys. The tree in question was in my wood lot and I wasn't too concerned, however this will make me take a closer look at some of the distressed trees near my house. I might take some pics of them and get your opinion. I have a couple of trees in my yard that should probably come down but I'll hire a pro for them. I don't mind cutting firewood in my lot but I don't like the thought of crushing my new roof...
Tom Dunlap
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Mike Maas said:
You know what I'm talking about Mike
Smokechase, I'm sure, is talking about using steel cables and tensioning them tight.
You're talking about synthetic "cables" and leaving slack in the system. Synth or dynamic cables have a much wider "footprint" to spread the load and not girdle the limb. It's what I call the "snow shoe effect".
Most of the systems have a way to adjust the loop too.
smokechase II
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Tom:
The cabling I did was with steel cable and it did not cut into the tree/limb at all.
I used the masonite in 1" x 5" slats and it insulated/protected the bark just fine. I thought about using 2 x 4's with groves for the cable, but too visually obtrusive.
It was on for about 7, maybe 8 years.
Wind brought the cherry part way down. It was an older decadent tree. We will be taking down its sister in the spring. Quit a bit of rot in both. Got greedy on keeping the trees and should have given up on them 10 years ago. (Only one minimal cherry crop here in 20 + years and the flowers usually are fooled to come out early and dusted with a frost promptly.)
Now to back up and support your argument. Smaller tree with generally not a lot of wind here in Central Oregon. So this wasn't a serious test.
The cabling I did was with steel cable and it did not cut into the tree/limb at all.
I used the masonite in 1" x 5" slats and it insulated/protected the bark just fine. I thought about using 2 x 4's with groves for the cable, but too visually obtrusive.
It was on for about 7, maybe 8 years.
Wind brought the cherry part way down. It was an older decadent tree. We will be taking down its sister in the spring. Quit a bit of rot in both. Got greedy on keeping the trees and should have given up on them 10 years ago. (Only one minimal cherry crop here in 20 + years and the flowers usually are fooled to come out early and dusted with a frost promptly.)
Now to back up and support your argument. Smaller tree with generally not a lot of wind here in Central Oregon. So this wasn't a serious test.
