Underwater Logs

[Canyon Angler]

With rot in the early stages, like dry rot, white fungus, I sprayed straight white vinegar into the wood rafters.

For what it's worth, I've read that you want to raise the pH, rather than lower it (as vinegar would do) to inhibit the growth of dry-rot fungus. One theory for why borax works so well at stopping dry-rot is that it raises the pH. In the right concentration, vinegar might actually promote dry rot.

I also had dry rot beginning in some rafters and 1" pine decking on top of them, and I put chunks of solidified borax up there, and it stopped it...

Also, paint auto Antifreeze on rotting boards. Full strength not that 50/50 stuff which is half water.

Yes, I've heard that, too -- and read that ethylene glycol is deadly to pretty much every living thing on earth, including dry-rot fungus, and yet apparently tastes sweet (which is why dogs love to drink it)...

 

[northmanlogging]

twas a time not to long ago, when the salmon runs, they folks used to rely on around here, nearly dried up and blew away.

Not to mention some pretty catastrophic erosion events (cough cough Oso).

Leaving the logs in the water serve many purposes, while the wood is valuable, life is more so.

Our rivers run fast and clear (usually) when you scrape everything up off the bottom, the fishies have no where to spread their fins so to speak, and there isn't much left to keep the river bed from washing out in to Puget Sound.

 

[slowp]

Sounds like freedom died. Why would logs sunk to the bottom not belong to anyone who salvages them? Back in the day my relatives had two house boats floating on logs. One day not long ago the sole survivor told me they got logs that floated down the river. He said his dad knew how to choose them by how high they floated. When I asked, what kind of tree he replied, Choctaw logs. He's very old now. He and his Sister had babysit me on the house boat and I'm 70. He stands by his story. Choctaw Logs are Choctaw logs. Guys down south salvage sunk logs and carve Dugouts. Saw some at the Franklin La. Boat show several years ago. We have way to many laws now days. My family ate out of the hills and swamps. We NEVER took more than we needed for the moment and we never commercialized. We ate Raccoon. Sometimes the dogs would tree 3 or 4. We'd take one. I never shot a sitting bird. Honor was important. Always made a clean shot or let it walk. Respected nature. That was back in the day. We never wasted food. That dishonored the plants and animals. Growing up I saw people respecting things they fear. That's strange. I respect what I admire. If I fear it I avoid it. If it threatens me I kill it. No dishonor in eliminating a threat. That's how I was raised. My grandson ask, is it wrong to lie?
I said to your family and friends but not to your enemy. His school teacher had a problem with that because she had told him it's wrong to lie to everyone. Of course he told teacher that Grandfather knows best. Ha. Ha.

More like freedom was taken advantage of. Cities paved over creeks, private land owners cut the trees along the shorelines so they could have views. Salmon are mined out in the ocean by factory ships. Our rivers run and meander and many are glacier fed. They are abrasive and will cut away banks. Trees used to get fed into the watersheds by the erosion and flooding. Our population is growing much too fast and uninformed folks buy "river front" property and want to clear it for river access. That is against the law and there is good reason. Trees provide shade and keep the water temps down. When the trees fall in, they provide habitat for our much prized salmon. The poor folks who bought the river front property can be seen on TV each winter complaining that their property is being washed away and the gubmint "needs to do something about it." In other words, the rest of us should pay for their ignorance in trying to live in a flood plain. We should allow them to further degrade the river by dumping riprap along their property. That is a major pet peeve of mine--counties allowing people to build where rivers change course and flooding happens. I guess those homes might provide more fish habitat when they sink into the river.

Our creeks and river run fast because of elevation drop and gravity. Salmon like cold water and pools for spawning and resting on their way upstream. Salmon migrate to the ocean, spend a few years there, and then swim back up to where they were hatched to spawn and die. We used to clean logs and debris out of our waterways, now we put trees back in. We are getting salmon back into some of the streams that they used to be in by putting in logs and fish friendly culverts.

The OP should have stated what the purpose of the log raising was at the beginning of this thread. Instead, he/she made it sound like a group of fed employees was going to illegally log a riparian area because they were special. It was a bad start.

I'd be looking into getting all the paperwork out of the way early.

For the rest of the folks who are not from here, we love our salmon and we pay dearly to try to keep our salmon runs intact. We have a love hate relationship with the dams on our rivers that give us reliable and clean power but are a pain for fish to get over. It's a PNW thing that not many would understand.

 

[BlackCoffin]

The purpose was to try and raise a log, maybe two from a lake with NO salmon activity. Far from logging I’d say. Why? Why do any of us harvest a tree? In some way or form it provides us with something positive. Now does that always make it right to do so? No, every situation needs to be justified, so that is why I figured I’d post on here for a little more insight and fulfillment into the situation before going out and doing something that could be potential bad. Also if you paid attention in my original post I mentioned lake which has nothing to do with a riparian zone. I get it, salmon habitat is sensitive and important. I don’t think anybody would disagree with that. Maybe you went about it all wrong?

 

[madhatte]

"Habitat" vs "Value" is a contentious issue. We're going through growing pains as a society where we are redefining the meaning of both. Pre-EPA and ESA and all those other laws and agencies, there was nothing to stand between commercial extraction and plant/animal communities. Now there is enough law that while these things are "protected", it has negatively affected human communities. We'll get there, where there is some sort of balance, but it will be neither quick nor fun. I'm 100% with Slowp on "don't freaking build in floodplains, what are you, an idiot" and as a forester, I believe that we can manage forests such that we provide for commercial demand while keeping ecologies intact. We can serve both people and nature -- by figuring out how we fit into nature and preserving our interests accordingly. Ain't a chance we'll ever do it out of the goodness of our hearts. Even if we did, any refugia we create will just be a museum piece, as the genie is out of the bottle as regards invasive species, climate change, whatever. As soon as we relax our efforts to "preserve", things will revert to whatever state they would be today.

 

[Wow]

Here in North Louisiana my Auto insurance took a big jump upwards.
I was told it's because of the recent flooding in South Louisiana.
Here is what they told me. The insurance spent a lot of money in the South and NOW, they raised the rates to cover THEIR losses. Seems insurance has ways of always making money.
As you said, people build in low lands then WE must pay for their mistake. Much of the Southern of this state is flood prone. Even in Shreveport LA. there are flood prone places where part time it's beautiful to see so here comes Realtors, builders and Bankers putting expensive homes in places to low. Eventually it floods and guess who pays. We do. Yes the earth is over crowded. There are many unwed women having baby after baby and not holding a job. We pay for that. As a Nation we need to get tough on that. But, in time the circle closes. Nothing will last unchanged forever. Some day Mankind will be an extinct species and time will repair mother earth. We were handed a great gift and greed, disrespect, and ignorance will cause it to melt away like the last snows of winter. Good day

 

[northmanlogging]

Lakes are fed by streams and rivers, salmon can be found in all three.

Riparian zones is a loose description of habitat fer water dwelling things, swamps creeks, streams, rivers, lakes, oceans, muddy spots, all fall in the riparian zones here. While it drives me nuts, it does serve a purpose and for the most part I play along.

Though certain agencies have far overstepped the meaning and intentions of it, taking opinion as law where facts should rule.

Democracy is a pendulum eventually it will balance so all sides are satisfied, right now its in the environmentalists court, slowly ticking towards favoring industry... but not i believe in a good way...

 

[northmanlogging]

Here in North Louisiana my Auto insurance took a big jump upwards.
I was told it's because of the recent flooding in South Louisiana.
Here is what they told me. The insurance spent a lot of money in the South and NOW, they raised the rates to cover THEIR losses. Seems insurance has ways of always making money.
As you said, people build in low lands then WE must pay for their mistake. Much of the Southern of this state is flood prone. Even in Shreveport LA. there are flood prone places where part time it's beautiful to see so here comes Realtors, builders and Bankers putting expensive homes in places to low. Eventually it floods and guess who pays. We do. Yes the earth is over crowded. There are many unwed women having baby after baby and not holding a job. We pay for that. As a Nation we need to get tough on that. But, in time the circle closes. Nothing will last unchanged forever. Some day Mankind will be an extinct species and time will repair mother earth. We were handed a great gift and greed, disrespect, and ignorance will cause it to melt away like the last snows of winter. Good day

Married or not does not justify anything.

Also please keep faith/politics in the faith and politics forum, preferably they should stay separate.

 

[BlackCoffin]

Lakes are fed by streams and rivers, salmon can be found in all three.

Riparian zones is a loose description of habitat fer water dwelling things, swamps creeks, streams, rivers, lakes, oceans, muddy spots, all fall in the riparian zones here. While it drives me nuts, it does serve a purpose and for the most part I play along.

Though certain agencies have far overstepped the meaning and intentions of it, taking opinion as law where facts should rule.

Democracy is a pendulum eventually it will balance so all sides are satisfied, right now its in the environmentalists court, slowly ticking towards favoring industry... but not i believe in a good way...

While I don’t disagree with anything said in this thread so far, all good info, a quick search of said lake showed no signs of salmon in it as far as the natural inhabitants. That isn’t to say they don’t dribble in there from time to time! And I agree, just because an agency has (or think they have) the upper hand over any laws or boundaries doesn’t make it right in doing so. I’m taking all opinions and making my own decision on this. Appreciate all the comments! A previous post I felt was more directed personally than about the topic/situation but otherwise all is good!

 

[madhatte]

There are many unwed women having baby after baby and not holding a job. We pay for that. As a Nation we need to get tough on that. But, in time the circle closes.

Unsolicited misogyny does little to advance your argument. You might want to take a moment to think about whether that's really what you want to say or how you want to say it. Blaming women for economic tough times is lazy and disingenuous.



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[JTM]

More like freedom was taken advantage of. Cities paved over creeks, private land owners cut the trees along the shorelines so they could have views. Salmon are mined out in the ocean by factory ships. Our rivers run and meander and many are glacier fed. They are abrasive and will cut away banks. Trees used to get fed into the watersheds by the erosion and flooding. Our population is growing much too fast and uninformed folks buy "river front" property and want to clear it for river access. That is against the law and there is good reason. Trees provide shade and keep the water temps down. When the trees fall in, they provide habitat for our much prized salmon. The poor folks who bought the river front property can be seen on TV each winter complaining that their property is being washed away and the gubmint "needs to do something about it." In other words, the rest of us should pay for their ignorance in trying to live in a flood plain. We should allow them to further degrade the river by dumping riprap along their property. That is a major pet peeve of mine--counties allowing people to build where rivers change course and flooding happens. I guess those homes might provide more fish habitat when they sink into the river.

Our creeks and river run fast because of elevation drop and gravity. Salmon like cold water and pools for spawning and resting on their way upstream. Salmon migrate to the ocean, spend a few years there, and then swim back up to where they were hatched to spawn and die. We used to clean logs and debris out of our waterways, now we put trees back in. We are getting salmon back into some of the streams that they used to be in by putting in logs and fish friendly culverts.

The OP should have stated what the purpose of the log raising was at the beginning of this thread. Instead, he/she made it sound like a group of fed employees was going to illegally log a riparian area because they were special. It was a bad start.

I'd be looking into getting all the paperwork out of the way early.

For the rest of the folks who are not from here, we love our salmon and we pay dearly to try to keep our salmon runs intact. We have a love hate relationship with the dams on our rivers that give us reliable and clean power but are a pain for fish to get over. It's a PNW thing that not many would understand.

Back in the late 80’s my little brother spent time in Sitka building salmon streams as part of some summer work program. He explained all the why’s and what for’s but I forget and can’t ask him because he’s since past away. But what I see today, and did back then, is that even the creeks in north Alabama have suffered the same fate. I don’t think it’s the farming practices back in the day, it’s more of people moving into areas and building adjacent to waterways. I mean, hell, we used DDT back then on crops right up to the creeks and in the early 80’s there was still an abundance of aquatic life. Today I wade those same creeks and nothing but houses and no fish.

 

[Wow]

Unsolicited misogyny does little to advance your argument. You might want to take a moment to think about whether that's really what you want to say or how you want to say it. Blaming women for economic tough times is lazy and disingenuous.



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Not women. Heck my girls aren't on the government selling sex for drugs having baby one after another. I was referring to that group.
Here in the deep south we have lots of those creating babies for society to care for. That was my point. I didn't want to be so blunt so maybe it's easy to miss my point. Marriage, something I joke about. Politics, something I don't care about. However, I do like to joke a lot. Have a great day.

 

[Gologit]

Not women. Heck my girls aren't on the government selling sex for drugs having baby one after another. I was referring to that group.
Here in the deep south we have lots of those creating babies for society to care for. That was my point. I didn't want to be so blunt so maybe it's easy to miss my point. Marriage, something I joke about. Politics, something I don't care about. However, I do like to joke a lot. Have a great day.

We talk about logging in this forum. All different kinds of logging. Personal opinions on other subjects are best left for campfire talk.

 

[Gologit]

Unsolicited misogyny does little to advance your argument. You might want to take a moment to think about whether that's really what you want to say or how you want to say it. Blaming women for economic tough times is lazy and disingenuous.



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Well said.

 

[northmanlogging]

biting my fingers... so much I'd like to say, but won't, doesn't do any good

 

[madhatte]

Not women. Heck my girls aren't on the government selling sex for drugs having baby one after another. I was referring to that group.
Here in the deep south we have lots of those creating babies for society to care for.

Oh, THEM. You mean "they who are not us". The OTHER. The "BAD PEOPLE". Certainly not women.

I do believe I've made my point and will make it again as needed.

 

[KiwiBro]

Maybe it's just me but I dig how threads on this site can go just about anywhere at any time.

 

[GilksTreeFelling]

Did anyone bring anything popcorn to this ?

 

[Deleted member 117362]

Has anyone ever pulled doug fir out of the water after being submerged for a number of years? Might have a wild adventure of pulling up old growth timber from days gone by, maybe 100 years ago, and just wondering what the wood condition would be like for resale (mainly live edge slabs). Not sure how fir holds up to being submerged in clear lake water in the PNW. Thanks!

That was done in Higgins lake. Commercial operation and mapped out logs with high resolution side sonar.

 

[Dave Hadden]

Here's a link to a story from 14 years ago about salvage logging underwater trees and that sort of thing.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/science/logging-the-underwater-forests/article4087879/

Back when I worked for BCFP at Port Renfrew there was an outfit working near the old log dumps on Mesachie Lake and Cowichan Lake using an American log loader with a grapple on it. It would "fish" around until it hooked something then drag it up and stash it on the barge.

Not the same as the article I linked but log salvage from hydro projects has happened in a number of places I know of.

Some of them are only ice-free for a few months a year but can produce enough to make it worthwhile I've been told.

Good wood and often larger than the mostly second-growth being logged so much nowadays.





Take care.