Will this tree fall? (VIDEO INCLUDED) YOU OPINION WANTED!!

[wecuttrees]

Hey Guys,

I had posted a thread http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=110606 but it only had pictures.

So I have done a site visit and would like some input about this tree's condition as well as treatment options. I just shot 2 videos in High Def to show the tree fully.

Here is the first that shows teh surrounding area, root zone, crown etc.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCHlrEODlcQ

Here is the second that just focuses on the diameter/trunk/depth of decay. I shot it to just focus on and show the proportion of the affected area.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svD9cCyz7zM


Can you give your opinion on:

1. Treatment to assist in healing

2. Risk assessment.

Thanks Y'all

Mark

 

[outofmytree]

Good idea posting video as well as pictures.

I don't know enough about decay in trees to help out here. If this was a one of my jobs I would sub it out to a DipArb friend of mine and then listen to his report.

IMO if this tree is to be kept it needs to be cabled as well as treated for the cause of the decay but, like I said, this is out of my league so......

 

[RVALUE]

We cleaned one up that looked better, (less decay) and broke off at the ground, missing the house by less than an inch.

It was a green 36 inch plus white oak when it went. (Blown down)

 

[treevet]

Since it seems your involvement with this tree has lasted a little while I assume you have gotten the client to buy into your procedure of ascertaining appropriate treatment and or you have history with this client and or they are a family member or friend. This is why someone else has not moved in and gotten a contract signature yet or treated or erased this tree to date.

Given this and the fact that as soon as you begin corrective treatments or perceived mitigating treatments .......you will immediately become complicit in any failure and consequent injury and/or damage that results.....

I would extend (as you are) the diagnosis/prognosis aspect of this as long as possible. In my opinion first I would find just how much the client WANTS to keep this tree and if they have any idea or any ability (looks like a very "humble" neighborhood) of what it take to keep this tree and that they may soon be paying an additional cost for removal in a worst case scenario as it may die or fail even with the best treatments in a hurricane or extreme weather event.

Cleaning out the decayed material, exposing the buttress with an air spade, resistographing for extent of decay, identifying the pathogen/s, evaluating the canopy, pricing cables, etc. are all preliminary things you can begin and put price tags on to see if the client is scared away or capable of this large expense. My guess is they are not and at this point it just becomes another removal quote, and there is nothing wrong from either side in that event.

Even if all appropriate treatments are purchased and put forth, this tree is not being "saved" , its life is just being minutely extended.

 

[wecuttrees]

The tree

Well first, The house is in historic Atlanta. Buckhead to be exact. So no, it is not "humble" as you said. It is in the historic/higher end of our city.

I had mentioned to the client, who by the way is reading this thread, the price of removal. She is worried, for good reason, of tree failure because of the tree's weight.

I really "wish" that there was a good way to save this tree. But the more I think about it, the more I think it is past the point.

I think that the previous tree service that hacked away with the hatchet cold have done a better job. (in fact I think they made the situation a LOT worse with the tree-kote and hatchet).

As for the pricing of removal or treatment, I had given her a quote for removal but I am not a pro a PHC. So I didnt bother trying to assert that I was.

Honestly, this is the EXACT reason that I have posted here. No one here will actually get the job, so there will be no conflict of interest to give the best advice.

I really hate to see such a magnificent tree come down. I hate to see such poor tree work that was done prior.

If there is a way (which I doubt) it would be great to find it and help this tree and client out.

Thanks

 

[TDunk]

Good idea posting video as well as pictures.

I don't know enough about decay in trees to help out here. If this was a one of my jobs I would sub it out to a DipArb friend of mine and then listen to his report.

IMO if this tree is to be kept it needs to be cabled as well as treated for the cause of the decay but, like I said, this is out of my league so......

I agree. Posting a video is a great idea. As for the decay, it's pretty extensive and would suggest it coming down. But i'm am no way an expert on decay. What i would do is take some time getting all the punky stuff out of there and see how deep it really goes.

If they want to keep the tree, i would do as Outofmytree suggested. Cable it, and would also take some weight off the tree.

 

[treevet]

I have been thru Buckhead before and picture it as rolling with huge houses/mansions not one house on top of another like in your video. I am not saying this is not Buckhead but that money MAY be an object rather than "money is no object" like many clients I have as I have many high end clients.

From the way you comport yourself and some of the terminology you use and how you have stumbled through this whole process (in front of this client) I would suggest you lead her to a more qualified arborist than yourself.

Are you even a Certified Arborist (illustrating a bare bones beginner level of knowledge)?

I wouldn't be so sure someone in Atlanta isn't reading this thread and won't come in and handle this situation like a professional without having a couple of forums do the work you should have done prior to this to be qualified to make these decisions or provide or attain the necessary information relative to this situation. I have met some very highly professional arborists from that city over the decades in seminars.

You should walk off this job.

 

[wecuttrees]

Tree Vet

Yes, it is in buckhead.



Yes, I posted this for advise. I am sure you are right. There is always someone else out there who knows more... That is why I am seeking it out. For the good of the client and the tree

As for in front of my client..... I really don't care.... Transparency is the way I opporate. The guy before me "sold" her on the fact that he knew something when he really didnt, and screwed up her tree really bad. I am not even charging her for the time I have taken to post this. I just want her to get unbiased advise from the best in the industry.


By the way, yes, I am ISA certified. And yes, I agree, it is bare bones.

I wouldn't be so sure someone in Atlanta isn't reading this thread and won't come in and handle this situation like a professional without having a couple of forums do the work you should have done prior to this to be qualified to make these decisions or provide or attain the necessary information relative to this situation. I have met some very highly professional arborists from that city over the decades in seminars.

Well, again, there is always the risk of a biased salesman wanting to sell a big removal job. I have made no claims as to phc, so yes, I would agree there are most definitely more qualified arborist than I for this



You should walk off this job.

I am not getting paid for this... Just doing it to help her...


By the way, you are coming across real aggressive. I just re-read my post and didnt think that I had said anything that would get you so confrontational. If I did, I apologize.

If you have anything constructive to ad to the discussion on how to help her tree, again, it would be appreciated.

I am not making any claim to being a pro at phc, that is why I am posting.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Will this tree fall?

I'll try to restate what I said in the previous thread, this visible defect does reduce structural integrity. If we go to the "two tree model" where you have a;

1 dynamic, growing tree e.g. cambium and leaves

2 which envelops the static, standing tree- wood and bark

the vitality of the former may have little bearing on the stability of the latter, and over time the vigorous growth of the former can actually add to the demise of the latter due to added leverage and pressure of height.

Any tree can fall under the wrong conditions, so I cannot say that any three will not fall. The Weather Service uses tree debris and failure patterns to determine wind patterns and speed after a storm. Anyone who has worked a major storm can tell you that that tree is more likely to fail then a tree with a perfect basal flair.

You concentrate on the decay court so much that we cannot see much of the rest of the basal area. I cannot tell from your vid if there is any indication of throw towards the loos of roots. I cannot tell id there is any compression of good wood on the sides, or fracture of tension fibers on the opposing side.

I recall touching on the size of the decay court in three dimensions, right now you are only giving us two.

From what I do see; for a client who has a high risk tolerance I may recommend a few plumb lines be installed to monitor any failure movement over time and do a fert and cable.

What you should do is ask your client to hire an ASCA RCA that would let you assist with a professional examination. She could spend several hundred dollars only to be told it should come down in the next few years.

 

[wecuttrees]

Thanks John

Hey John, Thanks for the post. It is appresiated.

She is reading each of these. So maybe She will end up finding and ASCA RCA.

Thanks again.

Mark

 

[treevet]

I am not getting paid for this... Just doing it to help her...

I think it is time to get someone that does know what they are doing on site and pay them and you step down and ask if you can bid on the removal if that is the decision and you can handle it. You aren't helping anyone IMO.

By the way, you are coming across real aggressive. I just re-read my post and didnt think that I had said anything that would get you so confrontational. If I did, I apologize.

I am not trying to come off any way but rather give an opinion on the situation you have put forth. If you only wanted comments in your favor I would not have posted in the first place. I think the biggest problem with this situation currently is you. You are posting for "free" ? I hope so. You have done nothing but throw a lot of confusion into this situation by posting up this issue on an open forum and directing this potential client to it. No one here has any vested interest in the problem and no one has physically visited the site.

Why, again, do you refuse to consider the obvious need for a support system?

I think like you have said many times, you are not qualified to decide on this so......why are you still there? Step aside and let someone that is come in, doesn't at all have to be a consulting arb. Plenty of CA's can handle putting forth the necessary decision making data to the client and ultimately it will be their decision.

If you have anything constructive to ad to the discussion on how to help her tree, again, it would be appreciated.

Please see above paragraphs. This is the most constructive advice this HO will get. Get a pro in there.

I

I am not making any claim to being a pro at phc, that is why I am posting.

[/QUOTE]
PS. Don't see why you keep blaming unsubstantiated mistreatments on previous arb. I just don't see it. He cleared off a little loose bark and made a less than NTP cut?

 

[treeseer]

...Don't see why you keep blaming unsubstantiated mistreatments on previous arb. I just don't see it. He cleared off a little loose bark and made a less than NTP cut?

Hatchets are not good tools for bark tracing.
If the previous arb did not check or treat the flare or roots that is malpractice imo.

ASCA membership or RCA means NOTHING re risk assessment; that experience is not a prerequisite for joining, when I did or since.

Danielson is acting professionally by putting out the facts as he sees them, and honestly by including the owner in the discussion.

Listen to Sanborn re 3D. :agree2:

 

[wecuttrees]

Thanks treeseer

Thank, I appreciate it.

None of us knows everything. I know where my limits are, and that is why I am asking for help.

Also thanks for pointing out to value of sanborn's advise.

Getting a bit of consensus on the subject will help the home owner know what she should do.

This is the exact reason I posted these vids here. So again, thanks your advise (and defense) is sincerely appreciated

Danielson= learning

 

[treevet]

]Hatchets are not good tools for bark tracing.
If the previous arb did not check or treat the flare or roots that is malpractice imo.

I think the HO's response was he knocked of some material with an axe. As for the second statement....neither did the second one who is at a total loss as to how to proceed. My point in bringing in a more qualified arborist.

Danielson is acting professionally by putting out the facts as he sees them, and honestly by including the owner in the discussion.

I totally disagree. My feelings are he is in way over his head and should go home and work on his game for a few years.

I would love to have some dialogue with the arborist on this job if they were qualified to be part of it.

 

[scottdennis]

Hate to make this my first post.

I've been reading the responses on this site for some time and man do some of you come across as egotistical ("IMO").

To me this site should be where professionals meet to get the professional input of others. Instead they are met with post that amount to "you don't know what the heck you are doing, so you should get a real man to do the job and stick to the trimming hedges! Better yet, do us professionals a favor and get out of the business because you're a diaper wearing know-nothing."

Geez! IT'S TREES LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! Quit acting like you're a thoracic surgeon!

(Well, so much for me ever networking with the tree gods on here. Hopefully my first post won't get me permanently banned. )

 

[treevet]

I've been reading the responses on this site for some time and man do some of you come across as egotistical ("IMO").

Now that you have stopped lurking you may find out that there is a vast disparity of knowledge between many "arborists" on this forum and everywhere. This is an intrinsic problem in our profession.

To me this site should be where professionals meet to get the professional input of others. Instead they are met with post that amount to "you don't know what the heck you are doing, so you should get a real man to do the job and stick to the trimming hedges! Better yet, do us professionals a favor and get out of the business because you're a diaper wearing know-nothing."

That is one of the all time silliest thoughts I have read to date on any forum.

Geez! IT'S TREES LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! Quit acting like you're a thoracic surgeon!

This is where the basis of your previous paragraph comes from......"they're only trees for God sakes and what does ANYONE really know about them anyway.....(Why don't YOU try cracking a book once in a while and you might learn just how much there is to know (and maybe just how much others have learned that you have not).)

(Well, so much for me ever networking with the tree gods on here. Hopefully my first post won't get me permanently banned. )

You will be sadly missed if you do choose to return to lurk mode after that compelling post.

[/QUOTE]

 

[matt9923]

I've been reading the responses on this site for some time and man do some of you come across as egotistical ("IMO").

To me this site should be where professionals meet to get the professional input of others. Instead they are met with post that amount to "you don't know what the heck you are doing, so you should get a real man to do the job and stick to the trimming hedges! Better yet, do us professionals a favor and get out of the business because you're a diaper wearing know-nothing."

Geez! IT'S TREES LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! Quit acting like you're a thoracic surgeon!

(Well, so much for me ever networking with the tree gods on here. Hopefully my first post won't get me permanently banned. )

welcome. Ill agree with that.

 

[scottdennis]

Now that you have stopped lurking you may find out that there is a vast disparity of knowledge between many "arborists" on this forum and everywhere. This is an intrinsic problem in our profession.




That is one of the all time silliest thoughts I have read to date on any forum.




This is where the basis of your previous paragraph comes from......"they're only trees for God sakes and what does ANYONE really know about them anyway.....(Why don't YOU trying cracking a book once in a while and you might learn just how much there is to know (and maybe just how much others have learned that you have not).)



You will be sadly missed if you do choose to return to lurk mode after that compelling post.

Thank you for taking the time to prove my point. Your illustration of the exact point I made did far more than I could have ever accomplished.

(Sorry mods! No further argument from me.)

 

[chewbacca]

That's a huge amount of tree hanging over that house in a codominant situation (which may or may not exhibit included bark - can't tell in video). And, that's a lot of decay at the base of the tree. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the decay is on the same side as the large leader growing over the house? I think anything other than removal is a gamble. If the homeowner is willing to take the risk, then kudos to them. I love large trees and that one is beautiful, but if that's my house and those are my kids sleeping in there, I'm cuttin' it into bits and I'm feelin bad the whole time I'm doin it. Call me uneducated, unsophisticated, or emotional. Here's my "professional diagnosis": that tree cannot be made unquestionably safe.

 

[wecuttrees]

I agree

That's a huge amount of tree hanging over that house in a codominant situation (which may or may not exhibit included bark - can't tell in video). And, that's a lot of decay at the base of the tree. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the decay is on the same side as the large leader growing over the house? I think anything other than removal is a gamble. If the homeowner is willing to take the risk, then kudos to them. I love large trees and that one is beautiful, but if that's my house and those are my kids sleeping in there, I'm cuttin' it into bits and I'm feelin bad the whole time I'm doin it. Call me uneducated, unsophisticated, or emotional. Here's my "professional diagnosis": that tree cannot be made unquestionably safe.

I agree 100%.

At risk of getting my head bit off for having an opinion, I agree with you.

I know there are "scoring" methods out there, but I (and I told the home owner this) usually just go off the "would I let my kids live under that tree" question.

In this case.... Hmmmm..... Maybe for a bit, but personally I would invest in tree radar just to make sure. I know one thing for sure, I would be REALLY worried every time the wind blew. Not specifically because of the decay, but rather just the weight of that tree.

But how do you "know"..... That is the problem we all face.

Thanks for the input!