Woodbug or Alaskan type?

[woodshop]

Its good every now and then to step back and realize wood is a natural material that moves with the ambient conditions. Its not like steel that you can put into a mill vise, take 250 thous off it and it be the same tomorrow...

Yup, when I first started to work with wood seriously, I went through a large learning curve concerning wood movement. Ask any professional woodworker, and he/she will tell you that (when possible) you never mill exact dimensioned boards wider than a few inches for a dresser or table for example, until right before you are going to actually fit them into place where they can be screwed/glued. At first, many a time I would take a rough board down to exact dimensions, taking great care to get it flat and true with nary a hint of a twist when laying it out on a very flat surface... and then come back down in the shop a day or two later and find it had a slight bow or twist. My perfect board had moved a little. As TNMike says, this is just the nature of the beast. All wood is hygroscopic, it takes in and gives off moisture like a sponge, and thus it swells and shrinks slightly with the weather. Real woodworkers deal with it by building in wood movement in their pieces. This is why raised panels in doors are not glued in place, they all "float" in that frame. Table tops are not glued and screwed down solid the whole way around, there is built in room for the wood to expand an eight of an inch or so while remaining relatively tight on the apron and leg bottom it sits on. This is also the reason you bring rough "dry" lumber from your outside stack down into your shop and then let it sit there for a few weeks while it "moves" to the climate of your indoor shop. This is another reason that if you're serious about using wood in a woodshop you need to purchase a GOOD moisture meter. I have a pin-less Wagner that I've had for over 10 years... I don't know what I'd do without it.

If you're talking about rough lumber or wet boards right off the log as we have been in this post, the situation is even worse. You can almost SEE them move that first week or so of drying when they start to lose all that moisture.

Once agiain I'm gonna plug Burce Hoadly's book "Understanding Wood" because it's so good... it explains all this in detail, and (for me at least) is VERY interesting reading. His other book "Identifying Wood" is of equel value, and I refer to both often. Once in a while on Amazon or other places you can get both together at a reduced price if you get the pair.

Silvertongue... over and out

 

[woodshop]

Well, this has been an interesting first experience with arborsite. Thanks to all of those who responded to my question, in kind. I have a semi-retired 394 that I will probably ue to power my choice, if I don't decide to go with both. Unfortunately for a lot more folks than me, the 60' of Woodbug that I originally posted about belonged to a log builder who used Sitka spruce from the coast and built large structures, so I guess they need the length. Anyway, I just heard the other day that they went bankrupt and fled with at least a few substantial deposits for homes etc.. I expect all assets will be frozen for the time being.

To bad about that 60' woodbug ending up as a frozen asset, thus not usable for somebody. Hope your "interesting first experience" here hasn't turned you off to AS, there really is a ton of info here concerning milling, with lots of guys willing to share what they've learned over the years.

 

[woodshop]

Its good every now and then to step back and realize wood is a natural material that moves with the ambient conditions.

Not that anybody needs proof, but here is a graphic example of how much wood CAN move. I took a worse case scenario, a species that is notorious for moving as the weather does, oak, and cut a strip off the end of a flatsawn board (flatsawn moves a lot more than a riftsawn or quartersawn board does). I wanted to see how much that cutoff would swell and shrink as the weather changed, so I then simply attached ONLY ONE end of that cutoff to a piece of plywood (got this idea out of Hoadly's book, Understanding Wood). The other end of the cutoff "floats" as I attached a hook which is attached to the very bottom of a large copper pointer, which is then pivoted a short distance above that. (see closeup pic of end of cutoff). So... as the humidity goes up, that piece of oak swells, which pushes the bottom of that copper pointer away from the oak, which (because it is pivoted on the plywood) moves the top of the pointer to the right. As you can see from the lines on the plywood showing the full range of that pointer over time, that piece of oak which is kinda "floating" and allowed to move, did indeed move almost half an inch from full swell (humid day) to full shrink (dry day). It doesn't move fast because of the relativly large size of the piece of wood, and it generally lags behind a relative humidiy meter by a day or so. In other words, if you take an RH reading every day and see the RH starting to rise, the wood/pointer won't react much for another day or so till you can see it start to move in that direction. I havn't taken the time to rig it up and test this, but I suspect if I had a much skinneir (but just as long) piece of wood with less bulk and mass, the meter would react faster. Call me nuts, but this kind of stuff interests me to no end. If I had the time, I'd have dozens of these little jigs set up with different types of wood, cut different ways and lengths just to experiment.

 

[AlasKarl]

And yet another mill link

Well, the more "I hang out here" the more mills I come across. I am not sure if Jonsered actually makes these mills or just markets them, but they sure look well made. Plus they appear to be quite portable.

http://tiltonequipment.com/html/sawmills.htm

 

[VT-Woodchuck]

Jonsered is VERY proud of these mills and charges accordingly!

 

[BobL]

Its good every now and then to step back and realize wood is a natural material that moves with the ambient conditions. Its not like steel that you can put into a mill vise, take 250 thous off it and it be the same tomorrow.

Recently I experienced this when I joined 2 boards that were about ~3 ft long by 4" wide by 3/4" thick. I cut the two boards from a piece of 2 x 4 that was at least 20 years old on a TS, clamped the boards together so I could plane one of their long edges on a jointer which produced a good fit between the two long board edges. I then left them for two days. When I came back to glue them up I noticed there was about a 1/16" gap in between the edges. I glued up anyway thinking I could force them into position with clamps. After the glue had dried I found I was close but not close enough for my liking so I ripped the join and edged the boards again and unfortunately I had to leave them overnight, now the :censored: gap was in the opposite direction! Fearing I was going to run out of wood I edged and glued the board immediately - which then produced a board bowed slightly along its length Sometimes you can't win - I then went and got another piece of 4 x 2?

 

[user 19670]

Well, the more "I hang out here" the more mills I come across. I am not sure if Jonsered actually makes these mills or just markets them, but they sure look well made. Plus they appear to be quite portable.

http://tiltonequipment.com/html/sawmills.htm

Hmm, now that the 2186 is the largest Jonsered saw it has become automagically big enough to mill with.
20" bar and 19-1/2" log. Even smaller logs than a Woodbug can mill.

 

[Matildasmate]

Procut type mills

Well, this has been an interesting first experience with arborsite. Thanks to all of those who responded to my question, in kind. I have a semi-retired 394 that I will probably ue to power my choice, if I don't decide to go with both. Unfortunately for a lot more folks than me, the 60' of Woodbug that I originally posted about belonged to a log builder who used Sitka spruce from the coast and built large structures, so I guess they need the length. Anyway, I just heard the other day that they went bankrupt and fled with at least a few substantial deposits for homes etc.. I expect all assets will be frozen for the time being.

This mite interest you , a few pics of a procut and one of dustys version , ya never know , Dusty mite even post a few new pics for us hint hint :hmm3grin2orange: I really like Dusty's version , way better design , very simple , no lifting the logs , just roll them on , no bending down with the saw , your head is away from the exuast gases , I am currently working on my own design of the Procut type mill . Cheers MM Welcome to AS and I hope you get as much as I have out of the experience , a lot of great peolpe on here .

 

[dustytools]

This mite interest you , a few pics of a procut and one of dustys version , ya never know , Dusty mite even post a few new pics for us hint hint :hmm3grin2orange: I really like Dusty's version , way better design , very simple , no lifting the logs , just roll them on , no bending down with the saw , your head is away from the exuast gases , I am currently working on my own design of the Procut type mill . Cheers MM Welcome to AS and I hope you get as much as I have out of the experience , a lot of great peolpe on here .

Thanks for the compliments MM. Im one of those "Design on the go" kinda people. I am eventually gonna get around to finishing this project, more importantly Im gonna try to simplify the method of attaching the Alaskan to the carriage. If time permits I will post some pictures of the Alaskan+saw mounted to the carriage this weekend and let you guys help me brainstorm the "better" way to mount it as Im sure there has to be one. Thanks again MM!!

 

[Matildasmate]

People just sharing ideas and thoughts

Yes, it was well said. Problem is, it don't have a thing in the world to do with what happened. What it does do is try to shift the blame around to someone else. That be the "silver tongue" at work.

Hope this helps
Rodney

Hi Rodney ..... Hey we don't always get it right mate , that's why they call them opinions , also we like to air our thoughts and ideas , some of them not great , but you get that eh . But on the whole there are some brilliant ideas and great people on this site and as you know yourself , from other threads I am happy to say what I think . Good to see your still alive mate . Cheers MM

 

[Matildasmate]

Thanks for the compliments MM. Im one of those "Design on the go" kinda people. I am eventually gonna get around to finishing this project, more importantly Im gonna try to simplify the method of attaching the Alaskan to the carriage. If time permits I will post some pictures of the Alaskan+saw mounted to the carriage this weekend and let you guys help me brainstorm the "better" way to mount it as Im sure there has to be one. Thanks again MM!!

Hi Dusty I was hoping you would chime in , I will be looking forward to your post , this will be much appreciated . I am currently in the process of designing a similar mill , your design really inspired me mate! When you start the thread I will post a few design pics of my own for you . Cheers MM

 

[Matildasmate]

Its good every now and then to step back and realize wood is a natural material that moves with the ambient conditions. Its not like steel that you can put into a mill vise, take 250 thous off it and it be the same tomorrow.

I have this problem myself from time to time because I do a lot of machine work. I have a friend that is life long career machinist and he got interested in making furniture. He was terrible at it. He wanted everything to fit like he had made machined parts all of his life. He couldnt do it.

My point here is that you are never going to get a truly flat, square piece of wood. Its just not going to happen. And if you do get very close, let it rain for a few days or get hot as hell and dry for weeks like it did around here last summer. It swells, bends, twists, you name it.

Im sure all of you know this but its worth thinking about from time to time.

Hi Mike ..... Your absolutely right mate , its timber not steel , allthough steel moves with temp changes , shrinking and expanding , but as pointed out , yep timber really moves a lot , the first log I ever milled , was a green redgum log which me and my partner milled out bush , anyway one board we milled had so much tension in it , it split in half by the time we got to the other end , going by my rusty memory , we got about half way along and the end had about a 4" wide gap at the start and split right up to where we were sawing , by now about 4' along , the plank was about 8' x 12"x 2" . Heres a few pics of a peice of thin dry redgum I just left laying around on a pallet , it was dry in less than a couple of months about 10mm thick . Cheers MM

 

[Matildasmate]

Anyone is welcome to call me a "woodshop yes man" if they like because I have been called names a lot worse than that. IMHO (and let me stress it is an opinion) it is unfortunate that when people are genuinely trying to offer an informed opinion that other people take it as offense. I re-read this thread several times and IMHO couldn't see any thing that Woodshop posted to be offended about. However, I do understand that some people can take offense at the smallest things and if this post offends anyone in any way I apologize in advance.

Cheers

Hi yesyesyesyesman :hmm3grin2orange: I agree Bob . Cheers MM

 

[TNMIKE]

Thanks for the pic MM

Nice looking mills. Yep steel will move. I use to do surverying in the dark ages when you still pulled a steel chain. You had to carry a precision thermometer to compensate for the chains length with varying temperatures. By chain I am talking about a steel tape. Anyway..it is surprising how much difference there can be even in that case say over several miles

Keep up the post....love em

 

[lmbeachy]

Woodshop: I find your experment tp be very interesting, I think I will have to try that myself, just for kicks. If the weather wasn't so nice and I didn't have so much garder work, I would like to come up tomorrow and watch you cut that big poplar. For your sake I hope it is nice tomorrow and you have a fine time cutting. Don't forget the pictures.

 

[TNMIKE]

Woodshop

Thats a hell of range on that oak length. Amazing isnt it.

 

[woodshop]

Nice looking mills. Yep steel will move. I use to do surverying in the dark ages when you still pulled a steel chain. You had to carry a precision thermometer to compensate for the chains length with varying temperatures. By chain I am talking about a steel tape. Anyway..it is surprising how much difference there can be even in that case say over several miles ...

I have also "pulled chain" surveying years ago (guess this dates us huh?), which was not actual chain, but 66 ft steel tapes. Yup, we had to carry a thermometer and add the correction depending on temperature. For only a small plot, like 1 or 2 chains, we didn't bother, but for longer distances it added up and made a difference.

That piece of oak in my crude humidity meter is only 11 inches wide, and it moved a little over 3/8 inch from a very dry winter to middle of hot sticky summer. Say you had a table top made of flatsawn oak though... say table was 3 ft wide... that table would literally swell an inch from side to side season to season. You can see that if you didn't incorporate that movement into the design of the table to the apron, you would have a cracked table or busted apron. That movement is VERY powerful. They used to fit dry wooden wedges into openings of large stones, then flood them with water. The wooden wedges would swell and crack open the stone. Powerful stuff.

 

[Matildasmate]

I have also "pulled chain" surveying years ago (guess this dates us huh?), which was not actual chain, but 66 ft steel tapes. Yup, we had to carry a thermometer and add the correction depending on temperature. For only a small plot, like 1 or 2 chains, we didn't bother, but for longer distances it added up and made a difference.

That piece of oak in my crude humidity meter is only 11 inches wide, and it moved a little over 3/8 inch from a very dry winter to middle of hot sticky summer. Say you had a table top made of flatsawn oak though... say table was 3 ft wide... that table would literally swell an inch from side to side season to season. You can see that if you didn't incorporate that movement into the design of the table to the apron, you would have a cracked table or busted apron. That movement is VERY powerful. They used to fit dry wooden wedges into openings of large stones, then flood them with water. The wooden wedges would swell and crack open the stone. Powerful stuff.

Hi Woodshop ..... very interesting experiment , good research mate , thanks for sharing . Cheers MM

 

[Rodney Sinclair]

Hi Rodney ..... Hey we don't always get it right mate , that's why they call them opinions , also we like to air our thoughts and ideas , some of them not great , but you get that eh . But on the whole there are some brilliant ideas and great people on this site and as you know yourself , from other threads I am happy to say what I think . Good to see your still alive mate . Cheers MM

Alive and kickin' MM. Just don't always have a lot to say. Anyway, I have been kinda' busy here. We had some bad storms last week with what they call stright line winds. Several good size pines came down. Two got the house and one landed on the family van.

Rodney

 

[user 19670]

Anyway, I have been kinda' busy here. We had some bad storms last week with what they call straight line winds. Several good size pines came down. Two got the house and one landed on the family van.
Rodney

Too bad Rodney. We have had our share of straight line winds around here. Now, if it "can" fall and land on something we wish to keep we fell the tree and live with a little extra elbow room.