working alone

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15 years, have never worked without a groundie, even on sidejobs. Honestly have never even thought about going alone. But it's probably because i don't trim, without a groundie i've got brush 15 feet up the stem and have gone up and down two or three times to fill the saw.

I knew someone would surprise me......I guess it all depends on the person doing the side job. There have been times when the job would be unprofitable for me to hire someone and then the HO would not be able to be home.....what do you do then? I guess the ones that work alone just have to take that calculated risk. I don't like doing it and it is rare for me to do it these days, but sometimes a man has to do what a man has to do. Not saying right or wrong or one way better than the other just saying that is how it is for me sometimes (my little caveat so this doesn't turn into a bashing forum).
 
To add to PDQDL's reply here is something else.

Another reason I don't work alone these days (aside from the small job here and there, extremely rare) is efficiency. Even if a guy is minimal in his tree knowledge, he can still drag and stack brush, butt end towards the chipper. That alone is worth it's weight in $7/hour gold. The groundie I have can gas and oil a chainsaw, run a saw on the ground without cutting himself, send things up to me with proper knots, can rope, etc, etc, ad nauseum. He is a good groundie and gets paid well. What that means is that it adds to the overall efficiency of the job. If I have bid the job for 6 hours but can crank it out in four, I have made $$$ and my groundie is part of that equation. When you are young and hungry you are likely going to take those harder jobs by yourself and gut it out, but over time you start figuring how to make things work better and get someone to help you out....just my own observation.
 
. But as of now there is no real training for groundsmen involved in emergency situations outside of a few exceptional company's programs. Perhaps the Good Messieurs Lovstrom and PDQDL have such programs?

Alright, fire away....

I think we or I are comparing apples to oranges. We have a good safety meeting every wednesday and once a month we have a training day and its all day and they get their 8. We learn that almost everytime the accident or injury was either unforseen or called a freak accident. Well, now we learn, or try to learn, to expect the unexpected. I do the accident report and every time I have to answer 'yes' to the question, 'Could this accident have been prevented?', It is easy for management to critize and come down on you by hind-sight. Being in the field alot, I take that 20/20 hind-sight to the crews and it makes for great conversation and some come out with discussions on something and we all get involved. The crew needs to know you care. Don't know about you, ( hence the apple orange thing), but a bunch of guys working side by side every day makes good crews. that means they care about their freind and are trained knowing what to do. They can open up and feel free to say what they want.
Jeff :)
 
I really only work alone if its drop and bomb and grapple out. If it has any roping my wife is the least that will be there and usually got a guy that helps but some days if the task is easy I will do it all. I almost always grind stumps alone but then I don't need no one.
 
To add to PDQDL's reply here is something else.

Another reason I don't work alone these days (aside from the small job here and there, extremely rare) is efficiency. Even if a guy is minimal in his tree knowledge, he can still drag and stack brush, butt end towards the chipper. That alone is worth it's weight in $7/hour gold. The groundie I have can gas and oil a chainsaw, run a saw on the ground without cutting himself, send things up to me with proper knots, can rope, etc, etc, ad nauseum. He is a good groundie and gets paid well. What that means is that it adds to the overall efficiency of the job. If I have bid the job for 6 hours but can crank it out in four, I have made $$$ and my groundie is part of that equation. When you are young and hungry you are likely going to take those harder jobs by yourself and gut it out, but over time you start figuring how to make things work better and get someone to help you out....just my own observation.

Well put. I know with this type of work I'm gonna need another pair of hands. I'm probably just stubborn and maybe a little greedy for now. Either that or just an a-hole. I don't know. I've been working alone for a long time, but this side of trees sure pays the bills a lot better right now. Time will tell. I have hired my little bros to drag branches on a few. They hate it, but love the cash at the end of the day. On one job I defenitely would not have gotten it done in a day without them. I'll have to learn.
 
I don't like to work without my crew. We got it down to a science. We're all a little older so there is no high drama or anything like that... Well with those guys anyway, I can be a prima donna at times... :)

Smooth sailing working with my guys. They are some wood chucking modiggers!!! :D

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My dad as well:

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Over the course of time, I have worked with many ground guys, and of course thousands of days solo. When working solo I constantly ask myself, "Would a ground guy be of benefit right now?"

At the end of every solo day I ask myself, "If I'd had a ground guy today, how much time would he have saved me?"

And at the end of every day working with a ground guy, I ask the same question, "How much actual time was saved by having him all day?"

Of course, these are speculative questions, but for fun I'll share.

ASSUMING he shows up on time, is sober and doesn't break anything during the day, has brought his lunch and fluids and doesn't need to leave early, sticking me with the end of the cleanup alone.... basically, he has a perfect day and works at a reasonable rate, I find that on an average day he will shave a couple hours off a day. One would think two men would be twice as fast as one man, but it just doesn't work that way.

So, at $15 an hour (not including workman's comp., payroll takes, etc.) that 8 hour day nets him $120. From my side, he saved me two hours, but those two hours cost me $60 each and I'm still having to do a large amount of the cleanup. I find I would rather work the extra couple hours and I get paid $60 per hour for that time. $60 per hour becomes my real cost for the employee, not 15.

Of course, you can blow holes in that theory all day long. For you guys with major equipment, buckets, cranes, gargantuan chippers, garage full of saws this would certainly not apply. Guys doing mostly takedowns, municipal work, ROW and power line utility also would not apply.

Solo simply does not apply for most, I would think. For myself, I have occasional days where I really wish I had help. Usually I can judge upcoming jobs and arrange help in advance, but on the whole, ground guys want steady work, not be called in just when needed. Committing to having help means having them there, regardless of whether you need them or not, paying them whether they're being useful or not, taking on all the responsibilities, liabilities and risk whether you want it or not.


I'm mulling all of this over therapeutically. This next week I am hiring 2 guys, they've already been interviewed and we're all good to go. Two because I want the cleanup done, and am hoping two guys can crank out the cleanups and free me of that completely. Two guys should be able to do the work I normally do myself. What I will do with them both while there is no cleanup to be done? Keep shelling out the money and see how it goes.

The reason for solo guy hiring two groundies? An insane number of jobs stacked up, almost 80, 3 dozen estimates still to do and averaging ~ 5 new calls per day. This is literally a dream come true, and I am extremely grateful. I've been booking Winter work all Summer when possible, but it's just gotten to a point where managing the work load on my own is no longer sustainable. :dizzy:

Solo does have its downside(s). I'm giving teamhood another try. I respect you good bosses out there. You're my inspiration right now.
 
I think we or I are comparing apples to oranges. We have a good safety meeting every wednesday and once a month we have a training day and its all day and they get their 8. We learn that almost everytime the accident or injury was either unforseen or called a freak accident. Well, now we learn, or try to learn, to expect the unexpected. I do the accident report and every time I have to answer 'yes' to the question, 'Could this accident have been prevented?', It is easy for management to critize and come down on you by hind-sight. Being in the field alot, I take that 20/20 hind-sight to the crews and it makes for great conversation and some come out with discussions on something and we all get involved. The crew needs to know you care. Don't know about you, ( hence the apple orange thing), but a bunch of guys working side by side every day makes good crews. that means they care about their freind and are trained knowing what to do. They can open up and feel free to say what they want.
Jeff :)

That is exactly what I am talking about. Crews with safety programs like yours are relatively rare. And I know you take it very seriously and work hard at it. Good safety programs are a lot of work, but they are good work. I don't have enough work to keep anyone full time so no one sticks around and honestly for their sake, I hope they don't. I hope they have more ambition. PDQDL your points are well taken and correct. I do turn down large removals.

I just can't rationalize hiring someone as a "sub-contract" groundie like many of our brethren just for my safety. When the time comes that I can hire someone I will, but the economics are not cooperating right now. I know I don't have to say it but a legit $10 an hour groundie actually costs considerably more.
 
I work alone often enough but prefer to have my groundman on site as much as possible. Since we're both part-time doing tree work about 20-hours a week, our schedules don't alwasy mesh. Every now and again, something pops up with his full-time work schedule or family life and I'm put in a position where I either work alone on a job or not at all.

I think the biggest issue with working alone is that it makes it difficult to react to the unexpected. One can be an incredibly safe worker and accidents can still happen. Short of divine intervention, all humans are flawed. There is no perfect tree worker thus, we are all susceptible to accidents whether they be caused by human error, equipment failure or unforseen circumstances (some might argue that these are all human error).

My point is, the need for a second person on site is not so much to prevent accidents from happening but, rather, to help respond to accidents and problems should they unexpectedly occur. That's why I'll have a groundman on site even if it's just a cut and drop job with no cleanup. He might stand around the whole time but he's there if something comes up that I can't readily deal with.
 
Working alone would also depend on your climbing technique. If you are climbing DRT with the tail on the ground I would prefer a groundie to keep my ropes clear in case I have to hit my hitch and take the leap of faith from the top. It just takes a good snag or a piece of unseen debris to stop the whole system. If a section begins a break out and you can ride the knot you are better off even if you don't make it to the ground. A fall from 20 feet is better than a fall from 90 (usually).

Also, there has been more than once where having a groundie has been instrumental in keeping misc. people out of the way. When we do commercial offices it doesn't matter how many warning signs and lengths of caution tape you put up people will ignore them and walk right through the drop zone.....to the point that they see ropes in the tree and can hear the saws running and still never even look up. Just last Friday I gave the "headache" call and got the groundie's "all clear". A few minutes later he gives me "underneath!" right as I'm about to make a cut on a large lead that we were going to drop below us. I could see my groundie was not in the drop zone, but I followed procedure and clipped my saw and gave the "all clear". Right at that moment I see a lady walk right where the spar was to land......she had been obscured to me by the canopy. As is typical in this setting, she was gabbing on her cell phone oblivious to the world.

If you ever work a commercial job, don't do it alone because you can not be aware of or control other people on the ground like a good groundie can. That's my input
 
Working alone would also depend on your climbing technique. If you are climbing DRT with the tail on the ground I would prefer a groundie to keep my ropes clear in case I have to hit my hitch and take the leap of faith from the top. It just takes a good snag or a piece of unseen debris to stop the whole system. If a section begins a break out and you can ride the knot you are better off even if you don't make it to the ground. A fall from 20 feet is better than a fall from 90 (usually).

Also, there has been more than once where having a groundie has been instrumental in keeping misc. people out of the way. When we do commercial offices it doesn't matter how many warning signs and lengths of caution tape you put up people will ignore them and walk right through the drop zone.....to the point that they see ropes in the tree and can hear the saws running and still never even look up. Just last Friday I gave the "headache" call and got the groundie's "all clear". A few minutes later he gives me "underneath!" right as I'm about to make a cut on a large lead that we were going to drop below us. I could see my groundie was not in the drop zone, but I followed procedure and clipped my saw and gave the "all clear". Right at that moment I see a lady walk right where the spar was to land......she had been obscured to me by the canopy. As is typical in this setting, she was gabbing on her cell phone oblivious to the world.

If you ever work a commercial job, don't do it alone because you can not be aware of or control other people on the ground like a good groundie can. That's my input

very good points. :agree2:
 
Yeah, to work alone you really have to posses some wicked skills, a clear mind set, no fear, and be really tough... I do it all the time, its nothing, well for me at least.:)
 
Yeah, to work alone you really have to posses some wicked skills, a clear mind set, no fear, and be really tough... I do it all the time, its nothing, well for me at least.:)

Seems one could work alone, but I'm not sure how my saw will get fueled and my gear set neatly at the bottom of the tree.
 
And who, I ask you WHO, is going to bag my ####### rope when it's tangled in a brush pile at the base of the tree with the ####### spar on top of it? I would do it but this cigarette isn't goin to smoke itself.
 
And who, I ask you WHO, is going to bag my ####### rope when it's tangled in a brush pile at the base of the tree with the ####### spar on top of it? I would do it but this cigarette isn't goin to smoke itself.

Well, for one, if you go up there by yourself you aren't really gonna wanna drop a whole lot on your rope. But good question, I dunno, Who?
 
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